High end receiver phono input vs dedicated phono stage?

[vwman01]

Hi guys, I have a Denon X7200W which was the flagship receiver around 5 years ago. I love playing vinyl on occasion and am curious to know how much better a dedicated phono pre-amp can sound vs the phono input of the receiver. I understand that built-in phono stages are usually afterthoughts, but is this still the case for a higher-end receiver? I would love to see a Denon receiver’s phono stage reviewed for comparison!

- TT is Pro-ject debut classic
- Cart is Ortofon 2m Blue
- Speakers are Aperion Grand Verus Towers

I am looking at the Cambridge Audio Alva Duo as a possible upgrade. I could instead use the money to upgrade to a 2m bronze.

 

[Cote Dazur]

You are most likely fine with what you have, Denon has been doing phone stage for more than 50 years, they know what needs to happen to play records.

 

[BDWoody]

What cartridge are you using on your turntable? If it is a MC, you will likely need a Step up Transformer as most receivers don't have input other than MM, but if not it's certainly worth a try.
I've hooked up directly to the MM input on my old Integra pre-pro, and didn't really notice much if any difference fwiw.

 

[Cote Dazur]

What cartridge are you using on your turntable?

Cart is Ortofon 2m Blue

 

[BDWoody]

I guess my excuse is that it's early...

 

[FrantzM]

What cartridge are you using on your turntable? If it is a MC, you will likely need a Step up Transformer as most receivers don't have input other than MM, but if not it's certainly worth a try.
I've hooked up directly to the MM input on my old Integra pre-pro, and didn't really notice much if any difference fwiw.

Really? What about the darkness of the background? And the width of the soundstage? And was the sound organic or ladden with chemical additives? Hmmm?


Seriously now:
To the OP: Don't worry about it. You are fine. Don't spend aone dime on a phono stage ... You have a more than decent one on your AVR. Unless you are using MC then ...what @BDWoody said.

Peace

 

[vwman01]

thanks everyone!

 

[Alkemix]

Bringing this one back from the dead, but I have a denon x4700h, a lower model than OP's flagship. I was wondering if I have the same or a worse built in phono amp vs OP's flagship model and if I might need to upgrade the phono amp. I noticed that I really have to crank up the volume when listening to records.

I normally have heos/spotify playing around 45-47 absolute decibals where the phono needs to be 65-70 to match volume.

- Project debut carbon evo, jr, esq, cpa
- Sumiko Rainer cartridge (MM)
- Svs prime pinnacle 2.1 with sb-3000

Should I start looking for a new phono amp?

Also, another question, but I see so many people saying the best listening modes for records are Direct or Pure sound modes (audyssey calibration defeated), but it just sounds better and louder in Stereo mode with audyssey enabled. Direct/pure on Phono sounds a bit flat or crushed in sparkle or details. Stereo mode on Phono isn't as rich and full as on heos/spotify, but noticeablt more than Direct mode on Phono. Is this some kind of purity for the sake of it? The room calibration should just bring out the frequencies that might otherwise be crushed by my room, why wouldn't I want that? I am genuinely curious and I have been listening to records solely on Direct but I'm about ready to stop that practice now or maybe I need a new phono stage/amp.

 

[DVDdoug]

You'd have to check if there's a phono gain spec. Some stand-alone phono preamps have variable or selectable gain. It's usually published for stand-alone preamps but they may not always include those details in AVR specs. I think 40dB @1kHz is "typical". (It's RIAA equalized so higher gain at low frequencies and lower gain at higher frequencies)

I found the specs for your cartridge (5mV) and that seems pretty-typical so I don't think that's the problem.

P.S.
NOTHING in home audio is "calibrated" so your TV output may be higher than your CD player, etc.

 

[Mr. Widget]

To the OP: Don't worry about it. You are fine. Don't spend aone dime on a phono stage ... You have a more than decent one on your AVR. Unless you are using MC then ...

I suggest trying to get info on the specifics of the AVR phono stage. Most AVRs that do offer one, consider it a checkbox and put little effort or expense in the phono stage. Unlike digital where a chip is a chip is a chip, analog is much more variable and in the phono stage this is especially true.

I am not saying that you are not fine, but I would assume the opposite until evidence to the contrary.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Bringing this one back from the dead...

In my previous post, I had missed that this thread is over a year old. My bad.

That said, what I posted is true for your Denon as well. Regarding an earlier post, yes Denon does have people who know cartridges and phono stages, but I wouldn't assume any of those folks had anything to do with your AVR.

Regarding listening modes. Try both and use whichever sounds best to you. I am not a huge Audyssey fan, but in some rooms it does the right thing and if you are in one of those situations, defeating it is probably not a step forward.

 

[Alkemix]

I suggest trying to get info on the specifics of the AVR phono stage. Most AVRs that do offer one, consider it a checkbox and put little effort or expense in the phono stage.

That was exactly my concern, but I cannot find a single piece of technical or secondary source info regarding the phono stage in my AVR. This thread I revived is the nearest thing I could find on the internet about the quality of the phono stage in my avr.

I think my only choice is to start auditioning phono amps and see if I start hearing improvements.

I appreciate yours and DVDoug's replies though! Maybe someone in the future will stumble across this thread with experience with this AVR's built in phono stage.

 

[Alkemix]

P.S.
NOTHING in home audio is "calibrated" so your TV output may be higher than your CD player

That said, every other input on my AVR do all share the same loudness at the same volume setting. Then the phono input requires 20 decibel higher listening, then when I switch back to any other input, I need to turn the volume back down. Forget to do that and I'm scrambling for the mute button.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I think my only choice is to start auditioning phono amps and see if I start hearing improvements.

I agree. That is your best choice. Most affordable and competent outboard phono stages and relatively small. You should be able to find vendors willing to give you full credit for any you try and feel you need to return.

 

[Chrispy]

That said, every other input on my AVR do all share the same loudness at the same volume setting. Then the phono input requires 20 decibel higher listening, then when I switch back to any other input, I need to turn the volume back down. Forget to do that and I'm scrambling for the mute button.

You can use the input source level adjust to somewhat even out the volume among various inputs....(setup - inputs - source level)

 

[Tom C]

Seems to me…
No one can really comment on the quality of implementation of phono stage built in to AVR without measurements. Perhaps they are out there, but, if so, I have never seen any. May be fine, may stink. How to know without measuring? Simply can’t know.
So where does that leave us? Cambridge Audio duo. Then you can stop worrying.

 

[walrashish]

A major benefit of an outboard phono stage is adjustability. I love having variable gain, some records are cut super hot and others need a boost. Especially if you're using Audyssey with Dynamic EQ—turning up the volume on the receiver will change the loudness curve, so if you like the curve at a certain volume level, boosting the gain at the preamp helps preserve the sound profile that you like.

Another adjustment is with variable capacitance loading, which can affect the frequency response of your cartridge. I like the Audio Technica VM540ML, which requires a really low capacitance to be flat, so I use the Schiit Mani 2 which has a really low 47 pF load option. Most internal phono stages don't publish that spec, but modern ones that do are often around 200 pF, which causes an upper treble hump in the A-T. The Ortofon 2M Blue isn't as sensitive, but I also prefer it with low input capacitance.

Other changes will be more subjective. I find the phono input on my Marantz NR1710 to be bland-sounding compared to the same turntable through something that's been measured here like the Schiit or the ART DJ Pre II (both of which I recommend). I wouldn't be surprised if Sound United receivers all use the same op-amp in the phono stage, but then again I have no real clue.

 

[Alkemix]

You can use the input source level adjust to somewhat even out the volume among various inputs....(setup - inputs - source level)

Yes! This worked. Now volumes are level matched (as close as I can tell) to my digital inputs. I'm still left wondering if I'm getting anemic phono performance, but this solves one of my immediate issues.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes! This worked. Now volumes are level matched (as close as I can tell) to my digital inputs. I'm still left wondering if I'm getting anemic phono performance, but this solves one of my immediate issues.

Phono is just a lower level input generally....the only time I use that feature myself.

 

[Alkemix]

Other changes will be more subjective. I find the phono input on my Marantz NR1710 to be bland-sounding compared to the same turntable through something that's been measured here like the Schiit or the ART DJ Pre II (both of which I recommend). I wouldn't be surprised if Sound United receivers all use the same op-amp in the phono stage, but then again I have no real clue.

Appreciate your insights into the audyssey + dynamic EQ, both of which I have turned on. The stuff about the cartridges is a few years ahead of where I'm at now, but I'll keep this in the back of my mind for that a-ha moment a few years down the road.

I've heard good things about Schiit Mani and heard it compared to the Ifi Zen often. I'm also considering, if I get a outboard preamp just to get something with tubes, like a Fosi audio box x2 replaced with Riverstone tubes. Maybe going as high as a pro-ject tube box s2.

I haven't done the phono stage research on this site yet though, so that is my next step, but I was waiting till next week to jump down the rabbit hole. But let me know if you or anyone already have some objections to the listed phono preamps.