HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[usern]

Sub 2% harmonic distortion at 114dB is solid.

Do you have a distortion measurement with 1 kHz @ 114 dB you can share?

Edit: just noticed that @majingotan posted the distortion measurements. They differ 2x from Amir's - how can this be? And group delay is also totally different. Did you measure this with GRAS system?

 

[Mr Swing King]

actually, I have zero problem with amir or anyones opinion ..all good..my problem is people here who never listen to the susvara or other HP's suggesting it doesnt sound good based on a graph or measurements...just say it is all subjective or that others might like different measurements and its all good..if one prefers the harman curve just say simply I prefer the harman curve and this HP doesnt adhere to it ..thats fine, just do not represent the curve or measurements as objective truth and again if you havent listened to a HP you cannot say it is good or no good

I have owned the Susvara. I thought it was pretty good…but I sold it in favour of my HD600, HE500 and Sundara. I strongly prefer the three.
I am not really a fan of the Harman Target..but I don’t have to be in order to use it as a framework to grok headphones from afar. This is what makes ASR great; via objective measurements you can interject your own tastebuds and see if X headphone looks like something for you.

The other way around is basically to rely on subjective reviews and magic. When we fail to understand the world around us we grasp at magic…and magic is very expensive in this hobby…and tends to disappear if biases can be held in check.
Then again the magic does exist: it just lives within the music.

 

[Vamp898]

I have owned the Susvara. I thought it was pretty good…but I sold it in favour of my HD600, HE500 and Sundara. I strongly prefer the three.
I am not really a fan of the Harman Target..but I don’t have to be in order to use it as a framework to grok headphones from afar. This is what makes ASR great; via objective measurements you can interject your own tastebuds and see if X headphone looks like something for you.

The other way around is basically to rely on subjective reviews and magic. When we fail to understand the world around us we grasp at magic…and magic is very expensive in this hobby…and tends to disappear if biases can be held in check.
Then again the magic does exist: it just lives within the music.

Oh by the way, Sennheiser released a new/improved Version of the HD 600.

Because Sennheiser was split into two companies (Sennheiser Hearing for the Consumer products and Sennheiser for the Pro products), it was renamed to HD 490 Pro. But the HD 490 Pro is the successor/improved version of the HD 600. If you liked the HD 600, you will love the HD 490 Pro.

 

[Robbo99999]

Oh by the way, Sennheiser released a new/improved Version of the HD 600.

Because Sennheiser was split into two companies (Sennheiser Hearing for the Consumer products and Sennheiser for the Pro products), it was renamed to HD 490 Pro. But the HD 490 Pro is the successor/improved version of the HD 600. If you liked the HD 600, you will love the HD 490 Pro.

I know this is Susvara thread, but I'll just make a comment on what you say here re HD600 & HD490 Pro being similar, they're quite different, so I don't think a person could say that someone loving the HD600 will love the HD490 Pro:

 

[Resolve]

Do you have a distortion measurement with 1 kHz @ 114 dB you can share?

Edit: just noticed that @majingotan posted the distortion measurements. They differ 2x from Amir's - how can this be? And group delay is also totally different. Did you measure this with GRAS system?

I posted excess group delay, which is the indicator as to whether or not we need to worry about internal resonances with headphones. I did a full measurement report when revisiting the Susvara with both GRAS and B&K data. It's unclear if there's something wrong with Amir's unit or if that's within unit variation... but neither one would surprise me really.

 

[Vamp898]

I know this is Susvara thread, but I'll just make a comment on what you say here re HD600 & HD490 Pro being similar, they're quite different, so I don't think a person could say that someone loving the HD600 will love the HD490 Pro:

I am sorry. It seems i did cause an misunderstanding by not fully explaining what i mean. As you mentioned, this is not the right thread and i expected, that if he really is interested, he will lookup further information. I do _not_ want to cause that anybody buys anything he does not like due to my recommendation.

So just to make this clear because i do not want to give bad advice (sorry if i did)

Sennheiser developed the HD 600 (at least they say so, its their official statement and how they advertise it and sell it) to be as transparent as possible, an Studio Reference Monitor.

The HD 490 Pro does exactly the same thing. It was developed to be as transparent as absolutely possible to be an Studio Reference Monitor, using the know how they collected in the time, since the HD 600 was released (its quite an old headphone).

So my assumption was that someone buying the HD 600 is looking for an transparent Studio Reference Monitor and the HD 490 Pro does exactly that, but better.

Of course its different, it would be illogical if they claimed it would do the better job but sound the same.

So to make this clear to not cause any confusions or unintentional bad buying advice. The HD 490 Pro sounds different than the HD 600, but it was developed to do the same thing and it does this better. So if you want an Transparent Studio Reference Monitor, you get the better Headphone, when you buy the HD 490 Pro. So to overly shorten this, i did not want to hijack the Susvara thread. No more Sennheiser in this thread from me from now on, sorry^^

 

[solderdude]

actually the HD490 Pro with mixer pads are not very far removed from HD600.
With producer pads ... sure.
HD490 Pro was not renamed. It is an entirely new model.
The HD400 Pro is basically the HD560S with an extra cable and different paint job.

 

[Vamp898]

actually the HD490 Pro with mixer pads are not very far removed from HD600.
With producer pads ... sure.
HD490 Pro was not renamed. It is an entirely new model.
The HD400 Pro is basically the HD560S with an extra cable and different paint job.

I was told that by an Sennheiser employee. He told me, i try to quote as correct as possible from mind, that they were working on an successor of the HD 600 that combines an stage monitor sound + mixing sound, but then the company was split into Sennheiser Hearing (Which was bought from an Swiss company that sells the Consumer Products) and the original Sennheiser that remains for pro products. As it is a good selling product for Sennheiser Hearing, it was decided that the HD 600 remains in the Consumer line and to not cause confusion (and with lower voice, to not cut sales from Sennheiser Hearing) they named it HD 490 Pro to prevent audiophiles from buying it. I was looking for an Headphone that sounded similar to my Professional IEM (Stage Monitor) and he told me, the reference for the producer pads were stage Monitors, hence they called it producer pads. You use it while you are producing the music (playing the instrument) to hear the original sound as unaltered as possible. And at least for the references i have (IER-M9, Mach 70 and my trusty old Yamaha HS-8+HS-8S combo), i can confirm that.

It could be that he was lying to me, but i was told that after i bought them and not by the person who sold me them. But i think the Susvara guys are slowly getting angry at us is there a separate thread for the HD 490 Pro here?

 

[Robbo99999]

I am sorry. It seems i did cause an misunderstanding by not fully explaining what i mean. As you mentioned, this is not the right thread and i expected, that if he really is interested, he will lookup further information. I do _not_ want to cause that anybody buys anything he does not like due to my recommendation.

So just to make this clear because i do not want to give bad advice (sorry if i did)

Sennheiser developed the HD 600 (at least they say so, its their official statement and how they advertise it and sell it) to be as transparent as possible, an Studio Reference Monitor.

The HD 490 Pro does exactly the same thing. It was developed to be as transparent as absolutely possible to be an Studio Reference Monitor, using the know how they collected in the time, since the HD 600 was released (its quite an old headphone).

So my assumption was that someone buying the HD 600 is looking for an transparent Studio Reference Monitor and the HD 490 Pro does exactly that, but better.

Of course its different, it would be illogical if they claimed it would do the better job but sound the same.

So to make this clear to not cause any confusions or unintentional bad buying advice. The HD 490 Pro sounds different than the HD 600, but it was developed to do the same thing and it does this better. So if you want an Transparent Studio Reference Monitor, you get the better Headphone, when you buy the HD 490 Pro. So to overly shorten this, i did not want to hijack the Susvara thread. No more Sennheiser in this thread from me from now on, sorry^^

Companies that sell headphones say a lot of things in their marketing jargon, most of which you should completely ignore!

 

[allmanfan]

Do you have a distortion measurement with 1 kHz @ 114 dB you can share?

Edit: just noticed that @majingotan posted the distortion measurements. They differ 2x from Amir's - how can this be? And group delay is also totally different. Did you measure this with GRAS system?

114 DB,try listening at 114 for long you wont have to worry about HP's since you will be deaf

 

[allmanfan]

Companies that sell headphones say a lot of things in their marketing jargon, most of which you should completely ignore!

agreed, listen to the headphone that is the only way to make a judgment...period,end of story

 

[Robbo99999]

agreed, listen to the headphone that is the only way to make a judgment...period,end of story

Not really, but we'll have to disagree on that, otherwise we'll keep going around in circles. The measurements will give you an indication of how it will sound, but most of us appreciate that different headphone models can sound a bit different even if the measurements look "the same". If the frequency response measurements are clearly different by a significant amount then you'll be able to make judgements on which headphone will be brighter or darker even without listening to them, assuming you don't get a real poor seal wearing one of the headphone models (especially if it's a closed back) which will reduce the bass below what was measured.

 

[solderdude]

114 DB,try listening at 114 for long you wont have to worry about HP's since you will be deaf

There is a substantial difference between having peak SPL at 114dB in the low bass with dynamic music and 114dBA average noise levels.
The usual 'loudness' exposure listst you see are about average noise levels in dBA which is much, much louder than music with 114dB peaks in the low bass.

Of course, I agree that listening at those peak levels is not recommended and the chances one is actually listening to peaks of 114dB peak > 1kHz is extremely unlikely.

There still is a good reason to test at these levels above 300Hz and that is to find issues in technical performance.
When it comes to gauging whether or not a headphone sounds good at loud levels you need to correctly interpret the plots on this website and realize that Amir checks sound quality at unusual high levels to see if the headphone holds up well.

I think most owners will never play it loud anyway as a: they need very powerful amplifiers to reach that without clipping and b: these people usually don't listen at loud levels but enjoy music for hours at low to max. medium SPL and value their hearing.

Take this into consideration and learn to read plots and understand that Amir happens to prefer Harman tuning. Knowing all that and reading Amir's evaluation you can conclude that Amir enjoyed the headphone with EQ and not so much without EQ (no surprise there) at normal listening levels, found the build quality and comfort excellent but expected better technical performance at this price point being a TOTL model.

The same gauging (incl. VFM) is done for all gear Amir tests. You can agree with that or not. You obviously do not agree. Amir is not going to change anything because you and some others do not agree with test methods and conclusions.

Besides, you must have noticed that measurebators at SBAF, Oratory and Jude also began making measurements at 114dB are they stupid too ?

Get over it .... is my advise.

 

[Mr Swing King]

Oh by the way, Sennheiser released a new/improved Version of the HD 600.

Because Sennheiser was split into two companies (Sennheiser Hearing for the Consumer products and Sennheiser for the Pro products), it was renamed to HD 490 Pro. But the HD 490 Pro is the successor/improved version of the HD 600. If you liked the HD 600, you will love the HD 490 Pro.

I bought the 490 when it came out
I absolutely adore it, although I wouldn’t sell either my HD600 or HD580 Precision because of it. Those two are my main headphones for most music when I want a natural presentation. The 490 with the velour pads on gives me a very pleasing tuning that seems to mimic what I’ve heard over other headphones of late, Verité Open/NDH30/HI-X65/Composer/most Hifiman including the Susvara/109 Pro/etc, only I feel the Sennie pulls it off the best. It’s a smooth slightly laidback listening experience that for me personally suits most genres of music.
…and all of that is without mentioning this headphone’s hidden weapon: supreme comfort. It disappears on my head.

Alright, let’s get back to the Susvara.

 

[solderdude]

Both Susvara and HD490 pro are very comfortable so there's the bridge.
But ... the Susvara is 17.5x more expensive .. (in Euro's when bought from Thomann) but not 17.5 x more comfortable.
Both have less than Harman bass response but Susvara is more 'linear' where HD490 Pro (producer) has more lows.
On the other hand, with mixer pads there is less bass than the Susvara.
Also both headphones (on Amir's fixture) have the same 'dip' between 1kHz and 4kHz which for some people is actually desirable and makes music sound more 'relaxed'.
Above 5kHz the Susvara actually is much more compliant to Harman than HD490Pro (both pads) and (on average) less peaky.
Yes, the Susvara has this 'noisy' response but ... the way the hearing works with their ERB this really is not problematic at all. One would associate that 'grass/noise' with poorer sound quality, noise, gritty/coarse sound but that isn't the case at all. In fact the Susvara (as most owners will attest to) sounds really smooth/pleasant and highly detailed.

Distortion:
Between 20Hz and 300Hz (where the loud signals and bass is) the Susvara is excellent, much, much better than HD490Pro.
From 300Hz to 4kHz (a very important range for the hearing) up to 104dB peaks both headphones perform very similar (as in inaudible amounts of distortion but there are very narrow band peaks reaching almost 1% at 1kHz and 1.5kHz and seem to be resonance related. Yes... at a 17x cheaper price the HD490Pro performs better here.
At 5kHz there is a massive resonance and things go sour above 94dB. One should realize that there aren't many 94dB peaks in music at normal to pleasantly loud levels so measured distortion at that point is inconsequential IRL for owners. Play loud and it becomes another matter but all Susvara owners that played it loud already know it does not sound better in that case. Yes, the HD490Pro does not do this and is 17x cheaper.
But ... Bass EQ'ed to Harman and played loud sounds really great and 'tight' with excellent extension. The HD490Pro will not sound anywhere near as good in the bass.
Above 6kHz both headphones are excellent in their treble even at 114dB SPL. You will literally throw the headphones of your head when you would play a continuous tone at 7kHz at that level.

So when looking at all this there are not just comfort but some tonal balance traits they share as well with the Susvara actually sounding 'better' at 'normal' listening levels but at considerable more expense.... 17.5x times more.
Yep, there is something like the E3. Harman compliant, less bass quality (on paper) than Susvara but better than EQ'ed HD490 pro, but higher sensitivity and much better where it counts (mids + treble).
Still the E3 is 6.3x more expensive than HD490 Pro, also very comfy and less than half the price of the Susvara. Note that E3 is closed and the others are not. In fact the Susvara is about one of the open-est headphones around.

 

[solderdude]

But its also not worth it to trash any headphone on measurements alone because I love Stellia and R70X both of which have been trashed by ASR.

Amir's conclusion of T70X:

Conclusions
The $300 price range is quite crowded with many headphones with likes of Sennheiser and Hifiman dominating. From fidelity point of view, I like them better. And they are also more comfortable for me to wear. But the fit may be different for you.

I would hardly call that trashing.

 

[HD800Fan]

How many years before Amir gets his hands on the new flagship Susvara Unveiled and unveils it? haha

 

[solderdude]

That depends on when someone drop-ships one to Amir or sends in one for measurement.
Both are quite unlikely as owners who forked out that kind of money are not really interested in how poorly it measures.
They care more about how it sounds.... I assume it will sound great.

 

[HD800Fan]

That depends on when someone drop-ships one to Amir or sends in one for measurement.
Both are quite unlikely as owners who forked out that kind of money are not really interested in how poorly it measures.
They care more about how it sounds.... I assume it will sound great.

You would almost think that's why it's priced so high

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

I wonder if they removed resonances with new version.
Anyway will try to listen to them when I have a chance.