HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[allmanfan]

Allmanfan is right, every info we obtain creates expectations and biases, it is inevitable.

Biases by knowing the price is well documented in the wine world. Checking a graph beforehand is even bigger, especially if the person compares to some "ideal" response.

As someone who heard a considerable amount of stuff, I really dont care about the FR meeting a certain target, what I care is to avoid annoying peaks and that proposed sound signature "makes sense".

If you know the price and the measurements you start out with all sorts of biases...if you are a typical person here and it is expensive you say it is a rip off...if it has a graph that doesnt comport with the harman curve you might well say it is not going to be to your liking etc...let me say again I do not have any problem with anyones preferences period...different people like different sounds and presentations...my issue is with those who tell me a popular well reviewed headphone is actually garbage because of a graph....if reviewers would put aside biases and simply listen and report we would get much better reviews....in fact some people hear might just find they have egg on their face if they enjoyed headphones that didnt have graphs that comport to their preconceived notions...my favorite comment from early in this thread came from a person who asserted that he was happy with the review of the susvara because now he knew his 33 dollar IEM was better than the susvara

 

[PBSequence]

If you know the price and the measurements you start out with all sorts of biases...if you are a typical person here and it is expensive you say it is a rip off...if it has a graph that doesnt comport with the harman curve you might well say it is not going to be to your liking etc...let me say again I do not have any problem with anyones preferences period...different people like different sounds and presentations...my issue is with those who tell me a popular well reviewed headphone is actually garbage because of a graph....if reviewers would put aside biases and simply listen and report we would get much better reviews....in fact some people hear might just find they have egg on their face if they enjoyed headphones that didnt have graphs that comport to their preconceived notions...my favorite comment from early in this thread came from a person who asserted that he was happy with the review of the susvara because now he knew his 33 dollar IEM was better than the susvara

You must ask yourself then:

Does Amir knowing the measurements, brand and price of the Susvara, which makes him approach them critically, bias him worse than another reviewer who knows not the measurements, but the brand, price and their stellar reputation and approaches them with an expectation of greatness?
Bias will happen either way, you just don't like the outcome in this case.

Besides that, the measurements speak for themselves. The Susvara has some tonal deficiencies that are noticeable during listening (yes, I listened without knowing the measurements), I found them somewhat tonally dull and not worth their high price. And I say that as someone who very much enjoys his Stax earspeakers without EQ (or with only a small bass boost) despite them measuring poorly.

 

[Tachyon88]

my issue is with those who tell me a popular well reviewed headphone is actually garbage because of a graph

Both can be true at the same time. I don't understand why any of that would matter to you though. Everyone makes their value judgment differently.

 

[allmanfan]

You must ask yourself then:

Does Amir knowing the measurements, brand and price of the Susvara, which makes him approach them critically, bias him worse than another reviewer who knows not the measurements, but the brand, price and their stellar reputation and approaches them with an expectation of greatness?
Bias will happen either way, you just don't like the outcome in this case.

Besides that, the measurements speak for themselves. The Susvara has some tonal deficiencies that are noticeable during listening (yes, I listened without knowing the measurements), I found them somewhat tonally dull and not worth their high price. And I say that as someone who very much enjoys his Stax earspeakers without EQ (or with only a small bass boost) despite them measuring poorly.

and that is certainly your right...I do not for a moment argue with your subjective views of any product, I only suggest the susvara over 7 yrs has been among the most highly regarded products in the headphone world and a strong consensus would perhaps suggest it has been the best all around headphone available...all I am trying very hard to say is the critique here or anywhere is subjective..the measurements do not objectively determine good from bad...one who favors a certain measurement chart is simply making a different subjective judgment..the harman curve after all is simply an average rating of what some 280 people like best...so be it

 

[faheem]

[

If you know the price and the measurements you start out with all sorts of biases...if you are a typical person here and it is expensive you say it is a rip off...if it has a graph that doesnt comport with the harman curve you might well say it is not going to be to your liking etc...let me say again I do not have any problem with anyones preferences period...different people like different sounds and presentations...my issue is with those who tell me a popular well reviewed headphone is actually garbage because of a graph....if reviewers would put aside biases and simply listen and report we would get much better reviews....in fact some people hear might just find they have egg on their face if they enjoyed headphones that didnt have graphs that comport to their preconceived notions...my favorite comment from early in this thread came from a person who asserted that he was happy with the review of the susvara because now he knew his 33 dollar IEM was better than the susvara

Good post, I agree with bias on this forum towards more expensive gear, that to me is a counter weight and product of the opposite end of the spectrum, Headfi and many other popular reviewers are part of the echo chamber, that glorifies anything expensive and finds excuses to justify their prices.

Humans are weird creatures.

 

[faheem]

You must ask yourself then:

Does Amir knowing the measurements, brand and price of the Susvara, which makes him approach them critically, bias him worse than another reviewer who knows not the measurements, but the brand, price and their stellar reputation and approaches them with an expectation of greatness?
Bias will happen either way, you just don't like the outcome in this case.

Besides that, the measurements speak for themselves. The Susvara has some tonal deficiencies that are noticeable during listening (yes, I listened without knowing the measurements), I found them somewhat tonally dull and not worth their high price. And I say that as someone who very much enjoys his Stax earspeakers without EQ (or with only a small bass boost) despite them measuring poorly.

Bias absolutely comes into play when we know pricing. It's unavoidable.

My example as a Susvara owner.

I walked into a local audio store with my Sennheiser HD650 as a base, and listened to all their headphones over the course of a few weeks. I first listened to the headphones the owner recommended, and then started listening to the rest. I had no idea on pricing and told him, not to tell me or hint at how expensive or popular any pair of headphones were. He went along.

I liked a few headphones, hated the Arya and prefered the Ananda over it, but was blown away by the Susvara. I had zero idea on pricing or what a Susvara was.

If I'd gone in knowing the price, my bias would have taken over, no way around that.

EDIT - The Susvara wasn't one of his recommendations.

 

[solderdude]

The idea here is that for $ 6k you might expect top notch technical performance.
It is great that you liked the Susvara as is (I did too) but when one is shopping for headphones to say .... max $ 300.- you are not going to spend $ 6k on a headphone even if it sounds lovely, which IMO Susvara does.
When you hear one that costs $ 500.- I can see someone willing to spend that (and stretch their limit) but not likely for $ 6k.
When one is shopping for a $ 6k headphone and hears the even better sounding HE1 ($ 80K) one also might not stretch the budget.

So price is an important aspect.
Signal fidelity is too for some folks and for others only 'pleasurable sound' is.

I can understand people liking this headphone and even buying/owning them and enjoying it.
But... people that care for signal fidelity and certain preference for an 'near ideal and scientific proven' signature and performance will not particularly care for it as better technical performance can be had for a LOT less money. Even as low as $ 50.-
For them the Susvara is an absurd device. Not for those that heard one and loved it.

That does not invalidate the review nor how Amir heard it.
I mean ... if Amir had negative recommendations for all expensive headphones he would not love and recommend the Stealth and Expanse.

 

[allmanfan]

The idea here is that for $ 6k you might expect top notch technical performance.
It is great that you liked the Susvara as is (I did too) but when one is shopping for headphones to say .... max $ 300.- you are not going to spend $ 6k on a headphone even if it sounds lovely, which IMO Susvara does.
When you hear one that costs $ 500.- I can see someone willing to spend that (and stretch their limit) but not likely for $ 6k.
When one is shopping for a $ 6k headphone and hears the even better sounding HE1 ($ 80K) one also might not stretch the budget.

So price is an important aspect.
Signal fidelity is too for some folks and for others only 'pleasurable sound' is.

I can understand people liking this headphone and even buying/owning them and enjoying it.
But... people that care for signal fidelity and certain preference for an 'near ideal and scientific proven' signature and performance will not particularly care for it as better technical performance can be had for a LOT less money. Even as low as $ 50.-
For them the Susvara is an absurd device. Not for those that heard one and loved it.

That does not invalidate the review nor how Amir heard it.
I mean ... if Amir had negative recommendations for all expensive headphones he would not love and recommend the Stealth and Expanse.

actually the only 2 he seems to like in the high end are the 2 mentioned and that is because they adhere to the harman curve he worships...more power to him but the harman curve is as subjective as anything else...his reviews of the abyss 1266 and the raal sr1a were actually humorous since one could not conceivably measure these 2 HP's due to their construction and the fact that you can manipulate the frames to make them sound almost any way you wanted...yet he panned them harshly based mostly on the measurements...if you are going to shop for a HP and have a budget of 300 dollars I agree the susvara isnt going to be in your list...I was referring to reviewers who can listen and pass judgment and then take cost into consideration...

 

[oceansize]

actually the only 2 he seems to like in the high end are the 2 mentioned and that is because they adhere to the harman curve he worships...more power to him but the harman curve is as subjective as anything else...his reviews of the abyss 1266 and the raal sr1a were actually humorous since one could not conceivably measure these 2 HP's due to their construction and the fact that you can manipulate the frames to make them sound almost any way you wanted...yet he panned them harshly based mostly on the measurements...if you are going to shop for a HP and have a budget of 300 dollars I agree the susvara isnt going to be in your list...I was referring to reviewers who can listen and pass judgment and then take cost into consideration...

And have low distortion, little to no resonances, etc. - unlike the Susvara

 

[CedarX]

actually the only 2 he seems to like in the high end are the 2 mentioned and that is because they adhere to the harman curve he worships...more power to him but the harman curve is as subjective as anything else...

No, it’s not… It’s actually based on objective research data.

 

[solderdude]

actually the only 2 he seems to like in the high end are the 2 mentioned and that is because they adhere to the harman curve he worships...more power to him but the harman curve is as subjective as anything else...his reviews of the abyss 1266 and the raal sr1a were actually humorous since one could not conceivably measure these 2 HP's due to their construction and the fact that you can manipulate the frames to make them sound almost any way you wanted...yet he panned them harshly based mostly on the measurements...if you are going to shop for a HP and have a budget of 300 dollars I agree the susvara isnt going to be in your list...I was referring to reviewers who can listen and pass judgment and then take cost into consideration...

The solution for you could be just to ignore reviews from Amir and start your own review site or find a headphone review site from someone who's subjective opinions echo yours.
When you are interested in technical discussions without the 'magic' then ASR might be of interest.

Amir is not going to review nor report things differently just because some folks (you are not the only one) complain about how Amir reviews audio(related) gear and/or don't like the conclusions.

There are quite a few reviews Amir did where I have a different opinion on how these sound but that's life. I just mention I liked how those sounded and sometimes explain why I drew a different conclusion. In most cases, however, I can agree with Amir's findings.
That's life; we are all humans with different preferences and budgets.
Nor are all copies of a headphone created equal nor test fixtures nor are targets all the same.

actually the only 2 he seems to like in the high end are the 2 mentioned

and E3, HD800S, Utopia, Ether CX, HE6, HE6SE, LCDX(C), U12t, Stellia, Rognir, SR009S but indeed not: AB1266, SR1a, LCD24, Diana, HD820, tia Trio, Liric, Heddphone, Susvara.
When you read the reviews you can read why he recommends, recommends conditionally or does not recommend a headphone. His opinion, his review, his findings. ASR is not a democracy but just like in the real world you do get to vote (the poll) but really can't change anything

 

[CedarX]

The solution for you could be just to ignore reviews from Amir and start your own review site or find a headphone review site from someone who's subjective opinions echo yours.
When you are interested in technical discussions without the 'magic' then ASR might be of interest.

Amir is not going to review nor report things differently just because some folks (you are not the only one) complain about how Amir reviews audio(related) gear and/or don't like the conclusions.

There are quite a few reviews Amir did where I have a different opinion on how these sound but that's life. I just mention I liked how those sounded and sometimes explain why I drew a different conclusion. In most cases, however, I can agree with Amir's findings.
That's life; we are all humans with different preferences and budgets.
Nor are all copies of a headphone created equal nor test fixtures nor are targets all the same.


and E3, HD800S, Utopia, Ether CX, HE6, HE6SE, LCDX(C), U12t, Stellia, Rognir, SR009S but indeed not: AB1266, SR1a, LCD24, Diana, HD820, tia Trio, Liric, Heddphone, Susvara.
When you read the reviews you can read why he recommends, recommends conditionally or does not recommend a headphone. His opinion, his review, his findings. ASR is not a democracy but just like in the real world you do get to vote (the poll) but really can't change anything

Taking the opportunity to thank @solderdude and their always valuable insight.

I assume most here know that but… @solderdude is the main (only?) contributor to DIYAudio-Heaven reviews (and opinions!) see https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/
…and yet, has also contributed 16,314 messages on ASR as of today.

@allmanfan, everybody is absolutely free to express an opinion, but if it’s presented as the truth on ASR, it better be supported by solid facts and evidences… which—in my opinion—you have yet to present.

 

[Mr Swing King]

I remember the AB1266 and Raal’s ode to the K1000 well. They both sound like they measure ie not that great. The Abyss is handily beaten by the Quad Era-1 and Denon D7200 (if one can handle a closed can) imho. They actually make the slapdash tuning of the Abyss into something alright sounding.
The Raal sounds like a more forward AKG K612..with poorer bass extension.

The Susvara however is an alright sounding headphone. It’s just bested by several cheaper offerings from Hifiman themselves. The HE500 fx, but that is of course my tastebuds talking here. I understand why other folks would prefer the Sus over it.
I’m not sure I understand getting mad over a review of it though. If you dig the can you dig the can‍.

 

[allmanfan]

Taking the opportunity to thank @solderdude and their always valuable insight.

I assume most here know that but… @solderdude is the main (only?) contributor to DIYAudio-Heaven reviews (and opinions!) see https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/
…and yet, has also contributed 16,314 messages on ASR as of today.

@allmanfan, everybody is absolutely free to express an opinion, but if it’s presented as the truth on ASR, it better be supported by solid facts and evidences… which—in my opinion—you have yet to present.

there are no facts that is the point for crying out loud...measurements are not facts as to how a headphone sounds and performs any more than measurements of tubes vs SS should disqualify tubes...put the headphone on your head and listen...period

 

[solderdude]

Headphone measurements are indicative and factual at the same time.
Amirs test do show some aspects of that particular headphone on Amirs particular fixture on certain conditions and mounting on the fixture.
Crin's and Oratory's on his fixture and all the other measurebators on their fixtures (and their copies).
These all provide data points.
The proper translation to 'sound quality aspects' of all those results is another issue, just as subjective reviews of reviewers and owners provide some data (when knowing their preferences and listening fu).

Never bet on one horse when buying without auditioning. Auditioning is always best.

Measurements do show some aspects of a DUT measured in certain conditions on a certain fixture (factual aspect).
The fact that a different copy (of the same model) on someone's head (conditions can also differ from a fixture) with a specific taste/preference with some recordings does not seem to match the FR plot measured DUT can be true for a plethora of reasons.

Same is true for speakers in a room.

 

[GaryH]

there are no facts

The Dark Age of the post-truth audiophile is upon us.

 

[usern]

I only suggest the susvara over 7 yrs has been among the most highly regarded products in the headphone world and a strong consensus would perhaps suggest it has been the best all around headphone available...

Perhaps you have bias for positive reviews for a thing you like? Perhaps the reviewers have a bias to ignore flaws of a product in order to not piss off big manufacturer?

If someone does not like Susvara tuning, do reviewers collective opinion overwrite it being the best for that someone?

 

[allmanfan]

The Dark Age of the post-truth audiophile is upon us.

so basically if amir or anyone publishes a graph that says a susvara or abyss 1266 or raal sr1a etc is no good that means that the thousands of people who own these and love them and the huge consensus of reviewers are simply wrong...?....

 

[solderdude]

so basically if amir or anyone publishes a graph that says a susvara or abyss 1266 or raal sr1a etc is no good that means that the thousands of people who own these and love them and the huge consensus of reviewers are simply wrong...?....

Basically it means that the technical performance isn't great, it is over-priced and that Amir does not recommend it despite loving the looks, comfort and build quality. Those last qualities usually go with premium prices.
It does not mean others are not allowed to like the Susvara, just that Amir does not recommend it based on his findings.
Amir did say this though (my emphasis)

I sat back and started to enjoy the fidelity which was at times quite excellent. That was at low and medium levels. With my dynamic tracks I crank up the volume and I was quite surprised when I started to hear static when I did not even have it super loud.

One has to realize that due to the Susvara being very insensitive (92dB/V) it takes a LOT of voltage/power to get it to play loud with dynamic music (110dB peaks) 8V = 1W.
Amir usually tests at very loud levels (shortly) to check for problems.
At 104dB peaks the sound is still clean. 104dB peaks is not very loud and with dynamic music is about 85-90dB average (studio monitor levels or just above that) with Amirs EQ of +5dB in the bass we are already at 109dB peaks with 85/90 dB average = comfortable loud.

To get to uncomfortable loud levels you need to add about 5dB more (1.8x higher voltage) so 14V = 3.5W. At high excursions the membrane starts to do weird things at 5kHz (where the hearing is sensitive). When there is a loud peak (bass + 2 to 5kHz content) you will certainly hear it. The Susvara does not play well at those levels.

Now... owners of $6k headphones usually don't play shockingly loud and probably use it to enjoy music for over an hour or so. They thus will not reach the levels Amir tested at so will never hear the distortion and the following finding is valid:

enjoy the fidelity which was at times quite excellent

So Amir enjoyed it and found the fidelity (at times) quite excellent. Thus vindicating the 'concensus' from owners that invested in 6k headphone and most likely even more expensive DAC and amp.
And yes... Amir does not prefer the stock tonality... but remember... the Harman target is merely a guideline and not gospel.
Personally I quite liked the tonal balance. Good bass, 'relaxed' sound (dip around the ear-canal gain) and well extended and smooth treble.
Amir simply loves a bit more bass and 'clarity'.

This is another way of interpreting the review (measurements and Amir's tonal preference) and the way Amir reviews.

There are quite a few headphones I love to bits (sound quality as is) and Amir does not recommend those either. No harm done, I don't listen at the levels where Amir tests.
Amir does so to push it to its limits to find out where those limits are. As he already found out over the years what is possible (and at what price) it is easier for him to draw a line.

The usual 'always positive' reviewers that praise every expensive piece of kit are doing this to stay in business, get more advertising, make more money, get sent more (and more expensive) kit to review which often they get to keep or on 'permanent loan'. There is an agenda there which Amir does not have.
Truth is a rare commodity in hifi lalaland.... I'm glad Amir does not play that ball.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Never bet on one horse when buying without auditioning. Auditioning is always best.

What to audition?
I know it's extreme case - but it's the first example that "was on hand", but sometimes you really don't have to listen.