The HE400SE you recommend is also reverse polarity, same as the Susvara. Either you didn't notice or it didn't bother you.This headphone wont even be able to render binaural recordings accurately due to cables being soldered the wrong way in.
The HE400SE you recommend is also reverse polarity, same as the Susvara. Either you didn't notice or it didn't bother you.This headphone wont even be able to render binaural recordings accurately due to cables being soldered the wrong way in.
LOLHow come the similarly performing HE400se costs 109$?
It's interesting to know that there are many people like you and Crinacle that do not prefer that elevated bass shelf of Harman curve and that's a very subjective preference. I have tried to listen to EQ'd headphones without the harman bass and with harman bass shelf and it really is interesting experiment to see how one's brain sets a preference for sound.
P.S: I personally find my preference for a slight bass shelf compared to a high bass shelf as noticed on harman curve.
What other hard evidence is needed? Does the wife also need to test them or tell me if she heard a difference from the kitchen?If your pair of Susvara perform the same as the 400se, i would say you have a problem.
Please, present a picture or proof of ownership as it will make your subjective ramblings more believable
I don’t remember recommending it. Why would anyone recommend anything that performs similar to the disappointing susvara? Maybe after eq.The HE400SE you recommend is also reverse polarity, same as the Susvara. Either you didn't notice or it didn't bother you.
Sounds like its more of a clipping problem. Some people are satisfied with focal elears and clears even though their max excursion is generally much lower than the hd600.Bass distortion. I had them and the bass distortion after EQ was the reason I needed to switch them for the 560s. The distortion is audible specially with the type of music I listen to. I could get them to clip and it was not the amp (using a A90D)
Don't forget the cost of production tooling and facilities (millions if starting up with things that can't be outsourced), labour, logistics, and many more, and the economics of breaking even on those investments, though yes, the Susvara has already had a long run. I feel like many high-end bashers oversimplify the economics, though yes, those investments may end up being toward a technically not so well-engineered as "overkill" product relative to current standards. At least the HE1000se and many others got quite the discount.I think drivers cost WAY less than you think to produce. The Susvara drivers are probably worth a fraction of $500 if you only factor in material cost. The drivers usually have lower production cost than the rest of the headphone. The biggest cost comes from designing the drivers and making them sound how you want. This could mean paying many experienced engineers for years. The cost of the research is added into the cost of the product.
Don't forget the cost of production tooling and facilities (millions if starting up with things that can't be outsourced), labour, logistics, and many more, and the economics of breaking even on those investments, though yes, the Susvara has already had a long run. I feel like many high-end bashers oversimplify the economics, though yes, those investments may end up being toward a technically not so well-engineered as "overkill" product relative to current standards. At least the HE1000se and many others got quite the discount.
There are certainly economies of scale and that dynamic headphone technology is already very well established. I don't know the details of to what extent sub-$500 headphone manufacturers outsource drivers as opposed to having invested in all that tooling themselves or to explore SOTA dynamic designs. Perhaps some "high-end" stuff is more so "boutique" per the costs of individuals implementing an idea for a new audio experience only feasible at smaller production scales and a niche market. For proper SOTA planar distortion performance, I don't fault DCA's prices or Meze's with EQ (wanting less distortion than what the EQed Meze Elite with hybrid pads gives is just splitting hairs for a giddy feeling). There are probably also factors like yield or driver rejection rates for a given production process. So far, the two HE1000se units I've encountered had better FR consistency and driver matching than my Arya Stealth. I would imagine that the Edition XS is a case where the tolerances are relaxed (measurably worse distortion) and much less time is spent on matching drivers to one another. Otherwise, yes, the Susvara was probably one of those earlier once "SOTA" planar designs priced in a market to recuperate real research and upfront tooling costs (making sub-micron diaphragms with directed traces on them rivaling the lightness of estat membranes), and still so priced to maintain its reputation until retired. Flagships serve a purpose to a company, and this one though already outdated still awaits its replacement from this company.Well, you have to compare them relative to other headphones. Because despite all the factors mentioned, there are still good headphones on the market that costs less than $500, even some less than $200. Why is that, if all of these factors is supposed to be the main cause of a headphone costing $6000? Aren't most of them supposed to be very expensive then? The Susvaras may cost more to produce than some of the cheaper ones. But is the difference THAT big?
And the same happened with a the combo I owned before: HD 6XX and A30 Pro. 2-of-2 clipped with Harman bass at at high levels. My 560s are better than both classics as I use (them) convolved to Harman and they sound almost the same as the DCA Stealth I’m about to return and they don’t clip.Sounds like its more of a clipping problem. Some people are satisfied with focal elears and clears even though their max excursion is generally much lower than the hd600.
Try another HD600 and hear if does the same.
This is what I mean by NONE of the headphones should cost more than $500. Their subjective and objective sonic performance, including DCA Stealth (as noted by KeithPhantom), Expanse, Susvara, Sennheiser HE-1 and any electrostatic headphones relative to HD560 is literally almost similar and even to the extent of Zero 2 IEMs. You only pay for nicer materials but subjective and objective sonic performance is priced at $500 fairly
Hey, since I currently own both (and even owned the Stealth previously), I think I can give my opinion. I think the Stealth are worth it if more than sound is what you’re after. They sound great out the box no questions and feel good, thing is that for me their sound signature is inconsistent, and I don’t mean the bass, but the midrange and highs. Move the headphone a millimeter and the presentation is different, in my opinion, that defeats the purpose of these being a reference for the Harman target for headphones as you never know what you are hearing. In the correct position, they are wonderful though. The low distortion is nice but I can’t really notice anything too obvious. If I had an instant switcher with level matching I would try a blind to see if I actually do.Although key difference is Stealth doesn't require EQ. How much will it cost (money or time) to EQ all sources someone uses for 560s? Not saying it will justify the price difference, but it isn't just nicer materials. It's out of the box performance, low distortion, along with any other more subjective aspects they might have.
This is all under the assumption that they sound similar after EQ, but I have my doubts.
Although key difference is Stealth doesn't require EQ. How much will it cost (money or time) to EQ all sources someone uses for 560s? Not saying it will justify the price difference, but it isn't just nicer materials. It's out of the box performance, low distortion, along with any other more subjective aspects they might have.
This is all under the assumption that they sound similar after EQ, but I have my doubts.
Don't forget that you can't "EQ to a common target" using a test fixture as those EQ profiles can incur quite different results on your own head even if they were derived from the same test setup (e.g. headphones.com), this "at worst" causing the EQed Meze Elite for me to sound "sweeter", though with the exquisite distortion performance I came to measure from it in addition to exquisite comfort and looks (the Tungsten version), I have no regrets.That’s the thing. Once EQd to your favorite target the differences are minor save for slight timbre differences however on the grand scheme of things, the sonic performance is very close from each other thus the $500 fair pricing.
IMHO, When people say one headphone is subjectively superior sounding than the other, they’re referring to stock tuning (NO EQ) and that’s where the preference bias is at greatest. Because of the hype from these preferences and not objective performance through Amir’s testing and subjective listening experiences when EQed to a common target which in this case is the Harman Curve, the market pricing has been ridiculously overinflated (but a lot of people don’t really EQ their headphones and would choose their preferred headphones based on their perceived tonal preference)
Like I’ve been pointing out, once EQed to a common target, you’ll realize how close the sonic performance of a SOTA $20 IEM EQed to Harman to a $4K DCA Stealth EQed to Harman or $1K HD800S Eqed to Harman with only little timbre and slight imaging differences that couldn’t be considered objectively superior
Interesting! HD560s is a good headphone in my experience, most expensive headphone I own currently is HD600 though, and yep the HD560s does have more potential than the HD600 after EQ.And the same happened with a the combo I owned before: HD 6XX and A30 Pro. 2-of-2 clipped with Harman bass at at high levels. My 560s are better than both classics as I use (them) convolved to Harman and they sound almost the same as the DCA Stealth I’m about to return and they don’t clip.
This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the HIFIMAN Susvara Planar Magnetic Headphone. It was kindly drop shipped by a member and costs US $6,000.
View attachment 336679
Owner was advised that the Benchmark AHB2 power amplifier would be the right device to power it so I tested it with that as well as my normal Topping A90 headphone amplifier.
Hifiman aces the design of the Susvara coming in a modern and elegant looking package. It is rather lightweight for its size as well, making it comfortable to wear. The only minor issue there was feeling the strap on my head but otherwise, it was excellent and I almost forgot I was wearing it. You can't see it but the metal strap is rectangular which I am not fond of in general but it kind works here. Whether you are getting $6,000 worth of luxury here I don't know but a good effort has been made to make you feel you are getting a flagship headphone.
If you are new to my headphone measurements, I highly recommend that you watch my video tutorial on headphone measurements which ironically uses Hifiman HE-6 as an example.
Hifiman Susvara Headphone Measurements
Let's start with frequency response of the Susvara and compare it against our desired target:
View attachment 336680
I was very surprised by the highly variable nature of the measurements. It is beyond noisy. Other measurements that use high level of smoothing don't show this as much and with it, hide potential issues there. That aside, we lack bass which is typical of a number of other headphones. Response is also insufficient in the 1 to 3 kHz which likely is there to keep the headphone form sounding too bright (given the lack of bass). Developing eq to correct the high frequency response is going to be a bit challenging but we will try using the deviation for our target response:
View attachment 336681
I was disappointed to see high levels of distortion where our hearing is most sensitive:
View attachment 336682
Narrow spikes usually indicate resonances so they are audible beyond their distortion characteristics and point to design issues. We can also see how fast they escalate. 94 to 104 dBSPL causes a 3 3X or so increase but go to 114 dBSPL and they shoot through the roof. What's more, if you go just 1 dB beyond, the drivers bottom out and just buzz! Wanting to rule out Topping A90's own distortion I switched to Benchmark AHB2. Alas, I was not able to get above 113 dBSPL as AHB2 ran out of voltage drive. Taking this into account, we see that the problem is the headphone and not the amps:
View attachment 336683
To make a more level matched comparison, I tested again but at 104 dBSPL:
View attachment 336684
Ignoring minor deviations, we see that the response is identical so there is really no need for the Benchmark AHB2 in this application. The Topping A90 is actually more capable of driving the Susvara. As noted, this is due to AHB2 not having enough voltage drive due to rather "high" impedance so SUSVARA (as compared to a speaker):
View attachment 336685
The Susvara is very insensitive so you definitely need a very capable amplifier to drive it:
View attachment 336686
Back to our distortion, here it is in absolute levels:
View attachment 336687
Even at 94 dBSPL we are exceeding our target between 4 and 5 kHz. I searched and there is at least one other measurement on the web that shows a similar issue so please don't say this sample must be broken. There is clearly a design issue here. The super messy Group Delay points to multiple sound sources (i.e. resonances):
View attachment 336688
I don't think I have ever seen such broad messiness across almost the entire audible band above bass.
Let's agree that objectively we are not doing well here. But "how does it sound?"
Hifiman Susvara Listening Tests and Equalization
I was listening to music on my everyday headphone and decided to just switch to Susvara without going back to my reference test clips. First thing I noticed -- which was odd -- was the high frequencies being distorted. When I went back to my standard tracks, this did not stand out. There, the tonality was "OK" but nothing exciting for me. So out came the EQ tools to correct the frequency response errors:
View attachment 336689
Ignore Band 5 for now. Addition of the two filters at 1900 and 4500 Hz filled in the treble area but now the headphone was bright. So I added a pair of filters to boost the bass region with similar slop to the inverse of Susvara frequency response. Once there, overall response was far better with good bit of bass and much improved spatial qualities. Alas, I was still sensing brightness. I pulled down the response at 4500 Hz and that helped but it was still bright. So I broke my usual rule of not messing with > 8 kHz and dialed in a negative notch filter at 12.7 kHz. That tailored the tonality to what I liked.
I sat back and started to enjoy the fidelity which was at times quite excellent. That was at low and medium levels. With my dynamic tracks I crank up the volume and I was quite surprised when I started to hear static when I did not even have it super loud. Suspecting EQ being the problem, I defeatured the whole thing and problem remained (although required a bit more volume to get there). This is a showstopper in my book as the problem is not even the elevated bass with EQ where the problem usually occurs. I think the issue is the high frequency issues we have found.
I know some will claim to not hear this or complain that the above level is too loud. I have my standards of how much power a headphone needs to be able to handle and the Susvara falls way short of that. I want perfection at this price point yet even if this was a $400 headphone, I would complain about this problem.
Conclusions
Hifiman nails the look and overall industrial design of the Susvara delivering a headphone that puts a smile on my face every time I look at it. It is also very comfortable to wear. Alas, objective measurements show issues across the board. Response is quite variable beyond typical noise. Has deficiencies against our target. And importantly, appears to have serious resonance issues that manifest themselves in distortion graphs. Listening tests confirm those distortion finding with the headphone creating static at levels that should not remotely be possible with a flagship headphone.
If you don't exceed medium loud levels distortion would not impact you. And maybe you are OK with this type of tuning. Neither is my cup of tea, leaving me with the sadness that such a great looking headphone is saddled with serious technical problems.
I can't recommend the Hifiman Susvara headphone. I also don't recommend pairing it with Benchmark AHB2. Even though it can almost drive it, it costs a lot more than a capable headphone amplifier.
P.S. I know some are going to be upset with the findings in this review. I highly recommend you watch my video tutorial on headphone testing before commenting.
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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.
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Hifiman Susvara APO Score EQ Flat@HF 96000Hz
January222024-111612
Preamp: -7.2 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 25.26 Hz Gain 7.15 dB Q 0.26
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 222.76 Hz Gain -1.39 dB Q 2.34
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 2053.04 Hz Gain 6.85 dB Q 1.40
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 4552.89 Hz Gain 5.73 dB Q 6.00
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 12890.79 Hz Gain -5.82 dB Q 6.00
Hifiman Susvara APO Score EQ Full Flat@HF 96000Hz
January222024-112945
Preamp: -7.2 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 25.54 Hz Gain 7.15 dB Q 0.26
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 208.65 Hz Gain -1.38 dB Q 2.25
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 2050.04 Hz Gain 6.85 dB Q 1.40
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 4605.15 Hz Gain 6.43 dB Q 5.78
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 5347.37 Hz Gain -2.59 dB Q 5.59
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 8870.31 Hz Gain 2.47 dB Q 1.61
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 12853.29 Hz Gain -6.78 dB Q 5.75
Interesting. It scores a lot better than I thought it would on the preference rating score.