HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[Sebby]

The se is, the v2, is not

i was actually talking about V2

 

[majingotan]

No of course not.
Funny is that the HE400SE has the exact same issue (inverted polarity) but hear no one whine about it.

To me the Susvara is overpriced and not the best headphone around for sure.
It does have some very desirable qualities when you actually listen to them with and without EQ.
This is not obvious from just FR and distortion measurements only.

In a fair pricing, NONE of the standalone headphones EVER should cost even $500 USD in terms of overall package and both subjective and objective sonic performance. As for all-in-one unit such as the Sennheiser HE-1. IMHO, at best it should fairly cost $3-5K (for the whole marble box) if I factor in the subjective sonic performance of it which is truly no better than the Susvara subjectively. The diminishing returns has long been at $20 as Amir have shown so if I value both subjective and objective performance, Susvara should be about $500 (for its metal construction and the gold traces on the drivers), Focal Utopia at $500 as well and Sennheiser HE-1 about $5000.

What I said above is fantasy though since market value is ridiculously over-inflated in real life, but I just point out the true fair pricing of these headphones in perceived value of subjective and objective sonic performance

 

[Sebby]

In a fair pricing, NONE of the standalone headphones EVER should cost even $500 USD in terms of overall package and both subjective and objective sonic performance. As for all-in-one unit such as the Sennheiser HE-1. IMHO, at best it should fairly cost $3-5K (for the whole marble box) if I factor in the subjective sonic performance of it which is truly no better than the Susvara subjectively. The diminishing returns has long been at $20 as Amir have shown so if I value both subjective and objective performance, Susvara should be about $500 (for its metal construction and the gold traces on the drivers), Focal Utopia at $500 as well and Sennheiser HE-1 about $5000.

What I said above is fantasy though since market value is ridiculously over-inflated in real life, but I just point out the true fair pricing of these headphones in perceived value of subjective and objective sonic performance

With $500 you can't even buy the driver.
We all agree about diminishing returns and that price isn't necessarily related to sound quality anyway, but there's no point in being so exaggerated either. Open your own company that produces headphones and IEMs, create both drivers and cups and let's see at what price you can launch them on the market.

 

[Phoney]

With $500 you can't even buy the driver.
We all agree about diminishing returns and that price isn't necessarily related to sound quality anyway, but there's no point in being so exaggerated either. Open your own company that produces headphones and IEMs, create both drivers and cups and let's see at what price you can launch them on the market.

I think drivers cost WAY less than you think to produce. The Susvara drivers are probably worth a fraction of $500 if you only factor in material cost. The drivers usually have lower production cost than the rest of the headphone. The biggest cost comes from designing the drivers and making them sound how you want. This could mean paying many experienced engineers for years. The cost of the research is added into the cost of the product.

 

[Sebby]

I think drivers cost WAY less than you think to produce. The Susvara drivers are probably worth a fraction of $500 if you only factor in material cost. The drivers are usually the cheaper to produce than the rest of the headphone. The biggest cost comes from designing the drivers and making them sound how you want. This could mean paying many experienced engineers for years. The cost of the research is added into the cost of the product.

And how do you create an object if you don't do research and development? It is obvious that the cost of the driver also depends on that, it seemed superfluous to me...
I return to the question that that driver costs AT LEAST $500. A 6mm Beryllium driver (not PTE coated) of the Final A8000 costs $250 if purchased from the manufacturer and in fact the IEM costs $2000.
I also think that no headphones should cost more than $2000 because I see absolutely no advantage in going higher than that (HD800s, DCA E3, etc... they are within this figure and I think they can be judged as TOTL headphones, if that term means anything at all), neither in sound quality nor in materials/construction, but $500 is truly a ridiculous amount for something truly excellent.
I repeat, open your own company and start producing.

 

[majingotan]

I think drivers cost WAY less than you think to produce. The Susvara drivers are probably worth a fraction of $500 if you only factor in material cost. The drivers usually have lower production cost than the rest of the headphone. The biggest cost comes from designing the drivers and making them sound how you want. This could mean paying many experienced engineers for years. The cost of the research is added into the cost of the product.

The R&D has already been done since 2010 even IMHO for Susvara and the HE-1 and even the Utopia. They're milking everyone's money from this point on, including myself (I'm honest that I succumb to this overpriced market due to how perfect Susvara fits my subjective preferences and I'm willing to buy it again from its subjective sound preference alone) and at best just like OLEDs costing 100K from the start to now under $500, it's absolutely bonkers to sell any 7 year old headphones (those 3 headphones in particular) at closed to their release day pricing. Hifiman and Focal's other lineup has zero R&D work on it and just rehashing drivers with a slightly different tuning on a slightly different chassis. Their true value is what I stated at $500 USD and $5K for the HE-1.

 

[the_brunx]

You forgot Marketing Costs. The shills are the real MVPs behind the susvara success. Not the engineers.

 

[Sebby]

The R&D has already been done since 2010 even IMHO for Susvara and the HE-1 and even the Utopia. They're milking everyone's money from this point on, including myself (I'm honest that I succumb to this overpriced market due to how perfect Susvara fits my subjective preferences and I'm willing to buy it again from its subjective sound preference alone) and at best just like OLEDs costing 100K from the start to now under $500, it's absolutely bonkers to sell any 7 year old headphones (those 3 headphones in particular) at closed to their release day pricing. Hifiman and Focal's other lineup has zero R&D work on it and just rehashing drivers with a slightly different tuning on a slightly different chassis. Their true value is what I stated at $500 USD and $5K for the HE-1.

You have no idea what you're talking about but okay, you're right.
I repeat that you should open a company and start producing headphones and IEMs and engineer everything yourself.
If I have to rely on your example on OLEDs for TV, none of the companies (Sony, Samsung, LG, etc...) produce and engineer the screens (dismantle them and then you will tell me) but they are external companies that today produce 1000 screens and in a year they produce 100,000, reducing production costs. It doesn't work like that with headphones, or rather, it doesn't work like that with companies like HIFIMAN.
Your argument would make sense if other companies also used the HIFIMAN Driver, which doesn't happen, because before lowering costs by selling to others, you have to invest a very high amount of money which, in my opinion, HIFIMAN cannot afford.
We are all good at judging an athlete while sitting in the stands

 

[the_brunx]

How come the similarly performing HE400se costs 109$?

 

[Sebby]

How come the similarly performing HE400se costs 109$?

As I'm talking to you I have a HE400se connected to a Topping G5 and I had the pleasure of having the Susvara for a week and no, they don't have similar performance.
The top end on Susvara is better without a shadow of a doubt, the sound is much more open. Despite everything, I prefer the tone of the HE400se (it doesn't matter because I listen to them with EQ), but that's not the point (I don't know if you don't understand or pretend not to understand).
Susvara may well be less performing than HE400se (which it isn't), but the investments on Susvara were much higher than on HE400se and it costs much more to produce it, regardless of the final result. Did HIFIMAN hit the mark with Susvara? Of course yes, whether you like it or not.
The rest is the reasoning of a Socialist with a small shop in a small town.
Even HD650 still has a high price and is praised by everyone (including Amir) despite being on the market for much longer, its measurements are painful (from a subjective point of view, for me they are terrible headphones) and aesthetically they look like cheap headphones.
The world is like this: it is not obligatory to buy and it is not obligatory to say nonsense things.

 

[the_brunx]

If You spent 6k, Sorry. Objectively there’s nothing really to point out that it does well against HE400se and with eq the HE400se is potential better, so Just another male jewelry piece.

 

[Sebby]

If You spent 6k, Sorry. Objectively there’s nothing really to point out that it does well against HE400se and with eq the HE400se is potential better, so Just another male jewelry piece.

No and I would never spend it on a pair of headphones, especially for Susvara which personally doesn't make me scream miracle. With HE400se I get 80% of the performance and after EQ the differences become thinner to my ears.
My Upgrade will be HD800s and it is my psychological limit. The fact that I didn't want to spend €6000 on headphones doesn't stop me from being objective.
My €1000 Citizen is much more accurate than a €60,000 Patek, but I can't say "a Patek should be worth €20" because I would hear people laughing 1 km away, sorry. Furthermore, if a product serves a limited portion of the market, the price of the product increases even more, even with lower development costs compared to the cheap product.
An Alfaromeo Giulia costs much more to develop than a Ferrari Portofino, yet the Ferrari costs much more.
In that it depends on the customer target and therefore on the units sold (presumed)

 

[the_brunx]

The biggest stinker is the claims, that this is the best performing headphones ever created. How? Why? Then they use that as the main justification for its price.

 

[Sebby]

The biggest stinker is the claims, that this is the best performing headphones ever created. How? Why? Then they use that as the main justification for its price.

For me they are not, but the statement does not come from HIFIMAN but from the audiophile community.
Even Crinacle, who has tuned some of the most lauded IEMs to ASR, thinks SUSVARA are the best headphones ever created, after Sennheiser's HE-1, yet he's not one to be swayed by price, given that a lot of very expensive equipment rated it as mediocre.
Many times I don't agree with his tastes, but I am me and he is him. There must be something true...
Then I repeat, in ASR and in the rest of the audiophile community the HD650/HD600 is praised which I personally find mediocre; even the measurements show a mediocre headphone, yet it is highly appreciated.

Measurements can tell you how the ice cream tastes, but not whether that flavor will please your palate or not.
Even putting dark chocolate in sauces can make you turn up your nose, yet it works...
The measurements do not tell us how the distortions of the Susvara are interpreted by the brain on a psychoacoustic level.

 

[the_brunx]

For me they are not, but the statement does not come from HIFIMAN but from the audiophile community.
Even Crinacle, who has tuned some of the most lauded IEMs to ASR, thinks SUSVARA are the best headphones ever created, after Sennheiser's HE-1, yet he's not one to be swayed by price, given that a lot of very expensive equipment rated it as mediocre.
Many times I don't agree with his tastes, but I am me and he is him. There must be something true...
Then I repeat, in ASR and in the rest of the audiophile community the HD650/HD600 is praised which I personally find mediocre; even the measurements show a mediocre headphone, yet it is highly appreciated.

Measurements can tell you how the ice cream tastes, but not whether that flavor will please your palate or not.
Even putting dark chocolate in sauces can make you turn up your nose, yet it works...
The measurements do not tell us how the distortions of the Susvara are interpreted by the brain on a psychoacoustic level.

What made crinacle more special than us mere mortals for him to be immune to biases?
What is objectively mediocre about HD600s performance after eq?
Which measurements tell how ice cream tastes?
How come the producers and engineers have never discovered and included this secret susvara distortions on all recordings for everyone to enjoy on any playback system?

 

[Chagall]

What made crinacle more special than us mere mortals for him to be immune to biases?

He's not immune, but at least he has heard them.

What is objectively mediocre about HD600s performance after eq?

Bass performance.

Which measurements tell how ice cream tastes?

Which measurements tell how headphones sound?

How come the producers and engineers have never discovered and included this secret susvara distortions on all recordings for everyone to enjoy on any playback system?

Secret distortion at 114 dB?

 

[the_brunx]

He's not immune, but at least he has heard them.



Bass performance.



Which measurements tell how headphones sound?



Secret distortion at 114 dB?

He's not immune, but at least he has heard them.



Bass performance.



Which measurements tell how headphones sound?



Secret distortion at 114 dB?

He was suckered in like the rest.

Bass distortion is the least critical. Infact can be helpful for headphones with less bass

the ones posted in the beginning of this thread

Peak or RMS, filtered or not?

 

[majingotan]

For me they are not, but the statement does not come from HIFIMAN but from the audiophile community.
Even Crinacle, who has tuned some of the most lauded IEMs to ASR, thinks SUSVARA are the best headphones ever created, after Sennheiser's HE-1, yet he's not one to be swayed by price, given that a lot of very expensive equipment rated it as mediocre.
Many times I don't agree with his tastes, but I am me and he is him. There must be something true...
Then I repeat, in ASR and in the rest of the audiophile community the HD650/HD600 is praised which I personally find mediocre; even the measurements show a mediocre headphone, yet it is highly appreciated.

Measurements can tell you how the ice cream tastes, but not whether that flavor will please your palate or not.
Even putting dark chocolate in sauces can make you turn up your nose, yet it works...
The measurements do not tell us how the distortions of the Susvara are interpreted by the brain on a psychoacoustic level.

It's just a matter of preference statistics. Me and Crinacle fall into the lower 21% of Harman Curve less bass preference thus we both prefer the sonic presentation of HE-1 and SUSVARA. Coincidentally, we both think that the HD650/HD600 without any EQ are excellent sounding and well worth the appreciation just like the former two (once again, proving that less bass than the Harman Curve is preferred). My argument was their inflated prices relative to objective sonic performance of Zero 2. I can also put the DCA Stealth, Expanse (Both of which I have auditioned personally and are a bit less preferred to my taste than Susvara and HE-1 solely from elevated bass hump) to that $500 USD price cap since they once again sound to that fair price extent subjectively when the subjective and objective performance of Zero 2 IEM is taken into account.

Based on the Harman Curve preferences, I can infer that the 64% of audience that preferred the Harman Curve will easily rank the Zero 2, Expanse and Stealth (and E3 which I haven't heard) much, much more than HE-1, Susvara, Utopia, HD650/600, Clears subjectively without any EQ applied

 

[_thelaughingman]

It's just a matter of preference statistics. Me and Crinacle fall into the lower 21% of Harman Curve less bass preference thus we both prefer the sonic presentation of HE-1 and SUSVARA. Coincidentally, we both think that the HD650/HD600 without any EQ are excellent sounding and well worth the appreciation just like the former two (once again, proving that less bass than the Harman Curve is preferred). My argument was their inflated prices relative to objective sonic performance of Zero 2. I can also put the DCA Stealth, Expanse (Both of which I have auditioned personally and are a bit less preferred to my taste than Susvara and HE-1 solely from elevated bass hump) to that $500 USD price cap since they once again sound to that fair price extent subjectively when the subjective and objective performance of Zero 2 IEM is taken into account.

Based on the Harman Curve preferences, I can infer that the 64% of audience that preferred the Harman Curve will easily rank the Zero 2, Expanse and Stealth (and E3 which I haven't heard) much, much more than HE-1, Susvara, Utopia, HD650/600, Clears subjectively without any EQ applied

It's interesting to know that there are many people like you and Crinacle that do not prefer that elevated bass shelf of Harman curve and that's a very subjective preference. I have tried to listen to EQ'd headphones without the harman bass and with harman bass shelf and it really is interesting experiment to see how one's brain sets a preference for sound.
P.S: I personally find my preference for a slight bass shelf compared to a high bass shelf as noticed on harman curve.

 

[KeithPhantom]

What is objectively mediocre about HD600s performance after eq?

Bass distortion. I had them and the bass distortion after EQ was the reason I needed to switch them for the 560s. The distortion is audible specially with the type of music I listen to. I could get them to clip and it was not the amp (using a A90D)