HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[IAtaman]

Heresy! Nobody in their right mind listens at 113 dB SPL at all times unless they're literally trying to kill their hearing in under 30 minutes. At a more common 104 dB SPL, its distortion is still inaudible due to masking effects. IMHO. the drivers do not behave properly when it starts hitting above 104 dB SPL. Simple as that

Yeah, you are most probably right. All these discussions about the distortion at 113dB SPL is irrelevant.

Distortion at 94 dB in the 200-300Hz and 4K-5KHz range is unfortunate though. Regardless if it is audible or not, I'd expect things to be much better under control in a top of the line product.

 

[IAtaman]

Of course there are. We don't do it to pass the time.

Could you please care to explain what are the objective measures you use evaluate headphones?

 

[amirm]

Could you please care to explain what are the objective measures you use evaluate headphones?

Every graph that is in the review. They are all generated by a machine and can be replicated. The machine doesn't care what brand it is, how much it costs, what it looks like, etc.

 

[Leeken]

Glad I didn’t auction my spare kidney now and just settled on the edition xs

 

[IAtaman]

Every graph that is in the review. They are all generated by a machine and can be replicated. The machine doesn't care what brand it is, how much it costs, what it looks like, etc.

No, that is not responding to what I said.

I wrote:

Do not confuse headphone measurements with DAC measurements please, in headphone measurements there are no objective conclusions.

And you responded by saying:

Of course there are. We don't do it to pass the time.

So your claim is your conclusions are objective? Because graphs do not review the headphone, write conclusions or make recommendations. You do. Could you please care to explain how your conclusions and recommendations are objective?

 

[MacClintock]

Could you please care to explain what are the objective measures you use evaluate headphones?

The Susvara comes with very modest accessories, not remarkable built quality, has a very jagged frequency response which is not very Harman compliant, messy group delay, high level of distortion already at 104dB, which becomes even much higher at 114dB (frequent burst of music might attain this level, even if the average SPL is much lower), is very hard to drive and has a premium price. What else do you need to disqualify this headphone?

 

[amirm]

So your claim is your conclusions are objective?

Of course.

Because graphs do not review the headphone, write conclusions or make recommendations. You do. Could you please care to explain how your conclusions and recommendations are objective?

Huh? We measure because we know what we are measuring. We have standards and references. When I show a graph like this:

We know we are looking at design problems when other headphones show this:

I can readily and defensibly conclude that the Expanse is far better designed to keep distortion at bay compared to Susvara.

We also have a reference for frequency response and can explain deficiencies relative to that.

So once more, measurements are objective. What they tell us is also objective. They may not be normative/prescriptive but they are objective.

This is what separates my reviews from others. The cornerstone of my reviews are the measurements based on both research and engineering. With proper measurements, we get quite far in assessing performance of a headphone. Others use measurements as an afterthought or footnote.

 

[pavuol]

Nice, it seems like a rational upgrade to Koss Porta Pro, which measures worse. (but only if you don't need "lifetime warranty")

..always look on the briiiight side of life... ta-da, ta-da-ta-da-ta-da..

Merry Chrismas to everyone

Spoiler

the wait for "official" results is not over:

 

[IAtaman]

Of course.

Huh? We measure because we know what we are measuring. We have standards and references. When I show a graph like this:

We know we are looking at design problems when other headphones show this:

I can readily and defensibly conclude that the Expanse is far better designed to keep distortion at bay compared to Susvara.

We also have a reference for frequency response and can explain deficiencies relative to that.

So once more, measurements are objective. What they tell us is also objective. They may not be normative/prescriptive but they are objective.

This is what separates my reviews from others. The cornerstone of my reviews are the measurements based on both research and engineering. With proper measurements, we get quite far in assessing performance of a headphone. Others use measurements as an afterthought or footnote.

I am really surprised by your response. Where did Expanse come from??

I am not equating your reviews to all other subjective reviews, I am saying your reviews are not objective either.

The fact that you are doing measurements does not make your reviews objective. Your own initial reviews were very clear on that. What happened to "nothing about these headphone reviews are absolute, but I want them to be far more reliable" or "a compass not a GPS?".

Are you genuinely claiming that your conclusions and recommendations are objective, and are based solely on the graphs?

 

[audiotron]

So much for "A Heavenly Melody, Harmonious Sound and Sweetly Voiced" straight from their website. This test certainly checks all those boxes.

 

[Endibol]

I am really surprised by your response. Where did Expanse come from??

I am not equating your reviews to all other subjective reviews, I am saying your reviews are not objective either.

The fact that you are doing measurements does not make your reviews objective. Your own initial reviews were very clear on that. What happened to "nothing about these headphone reviews are absolute, but I want them to be far more reliable" or "a compass not a GPS?".

Are you genuinely claiming that your conclusions and recommendations are objective, and are based solely on the graphs?

So, what then is your definition of objective reviewing?

 

[amirm]

Are you genuinely claiming that your conclusions and recommendations are objective, and are based solely on the graphs?

I will answer this but then you need to move this generic discussion out of a review thread.

I make objective measurements. I assess those. I then perform confirmation using equalization and (subjective) listening tests. I combine all of this and my experience reviewing huge number of headphones and provide some concluding remarks. Experienced members can read and judge the measurements on their own and don't need my conclusions. Others do and value what I have to say at the end.

 

[amirm]

The fact that you are doing measurements does not make your reviews objective. Your own initial reviews were very clear on that. What happened to "nothing about these headphone reviews are absolute, but I want them to be far more reliable" or "a compass not a GPS?".

Degree of accuracy doesn't make a review subjective. Measuring something with a ruler or micrometer are both objective. Former simply has less accuracy than the latter.

So it is absolutely clear:

Measurements: objective
Listening Tests: subjective

Conclusions: my judgement of all the data.

 

[fin]

how your conclusions and recommendations are objective?

Any conclusion or recommendation cannot be objective based on this. For example, it's impossible to be completely objective in not recommending something measured as trash, because there might be people who appreciate a specific kind of trash. By not recommending that you are being subjective, as it already reflects your personal preferences.

However, we are here because we were tired of subjective reviews that consist of pages after pages of irrelevant random BS from a random person's perference. At least graphs and numbers provide a basis on which people can form similar opinions within the same scientific framework. Although Amir's review may include some subjective elements in the listening test or conclusion, this doesn't make the entire conclusion subjective.

I suggest saving time and energy by clearly stating your thoughts, instead of engaging in debates over such minor details. For instance explain 'in headphone measurements there are no objective conclusions' in another thread may be much more constructive.

 

[alekksander]

as usual, strong distortion results in hype in certain audiophile enthusiasts circles.

 

[Countach]

6k$ for such performance is veeeeery disappointing. I could consider them for less than 400-500$.

I had a few Hifimans (400se, HE-4xx, Sundara, Edition X, Edition XS, Arya) and my favourite is still 4xx, no doubt about it.

 

[Leporello]

This six grand would get you a top of the line Ascend Acoustic or a Revel F226Be.

I confess that I will never understand headphone culture. So I'll give sit on the side line and wait for the updated Benchmark measurements.

Headphones used to be an accessory, but during the last two decades audiophiles have started to take them seriously. Which usually means that the amount of audophile woo increases exponentially (likewise in computer audio).

 

[amirm]

I had a few Hifimans (400se, HE-4xx, Sundara, Edition X, Edition XS, Arya) and my favourite is still 4xx, no doubt about it.

The 400 is such a workhorse. It has good spatial qualities and with a bit of EQ, sounds excellent.

 

[plumpudding2]

@amirm have you ever considered producing a distortion graph that follows some average music loudness curve? I listen at 80db @ 1khz, the only frequencies where your distortion plots are relevant for my actual listening conditions is in the bass (where coincidentally Susvara does better than Expanse @114db).

Of course it is very informative to measure what happens when drivers are pushed to their limits. However I seem to remember you found both the Abyss1266 and HEDDphone quite good sounding despite atrocious 114db treble distortion.

You showed some of these energy spectra of real music in your "music: how loud is loud?" Video, which was very informative to me. Maybe something like a distortion plot for real listening spls would help relate your distortion measurements to subjective evaluations!

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

I confess that I will never understand headphone culture

Let me help you.
Consider two options
- space limitations
- external noise or not wanting to make all your house to listen your music

I hope that it will broad your view.