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Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

Ron Texas

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Nice cans for $350. Thank you @amirm
 

KiyPhi

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Bass light and treble centric.
That's an instant pass for me.
It EQ's really well though, so you can make the bass as much as you want. The treble only has one peak and is otherwise very close to Harman so I wouldn't call it treble centric, especially with those nice mids. The low end extension will depend on the seal on your own head. Rtings did the FR consistency on 5 different people here. Variance was pretty good with only a few dB down at 20Hz in most cases so just throw on a low shelf to taste.
 

AntoniusRoses

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This is known as the "offset issue" and it happened with the very very first batches they sold. As I remember well they swapped for free for new ones at that time.
I'm pretty sure that I got the v2 with modified pads, and the guy who bought my Sundara didn't notice the same issue. I'll probably get another one in the future but firstly I need to sell my Adam t5v lol
 

bogart

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I'm listening to music on my Sundara set tonight and am continually delighted with them. I tried Oratory's EQ vs. Amir's and realized they have different pre-amp gain, giving myself an instant reminder of why level matching is so critical in comparisons! I do give a slight edge in preference to the 9 band PEQ Oratory provided over Amir's, but commend him for getting most of the way with only 3 bands of correction.

I'm a former Grado owner, and their over-emphasized treble and midrange gave good clarity on music. For me, the Sundara was like "graduating" from Grado into a set that just does everything better. All cliches aside, my wife took a listen to the EQ'd Sundara tonight and said "I really liked your Grados and listened to them all the time when you weren't home, but these are just so much better and my comfortable." Spot on.

I'm also a huge fan of moode + CamillaDSP on the Raspberry Pi. I'm sending music from my iphone via Airplay and it just works so well. It's also freed up a MiniDSP to other applications, since this Raspberry Pi can do basically anything I need it to do on DSP now for a simple system. Fantastic... but not the thread for talking it up more!
 

markanini

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Beyerdynamic driver consistency is known to be bad
Measurements show that to be be true. The question is if it makes one pair sounds significantly better or worse. I've tried two different DT770-80 and DT990 Pro pairs and couldn't hear any night and day differences between the same unit. You have to explain how you can't RMA, that's governed by laws in most counties.
 

cowsgomoo2002

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You have to explain how you can't RMA, that's governed by laws in most counties.

You're right. My thinking when I wrote that was that it's much harder to make a case for RMA with poorly measuring but fully functioning drivers. Hifiman's QC issues are usually outright failures thus easy to RMA.
 

markanini

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You're right. My thinking when I wrote that was that it's much harder to make a case for RMA with poorly measuring but fully functioning drivers. Hifiman's QC issues are usually outright failures thus easy to RMA.
Sometimes you have to instruct the RMA department to play some white noise and reverse the cups to hear the disparity.
 

Fvu31

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Thank you for the great review Amir! Ive had these headphone for about 2 weeks now and I completely agree that these lack bass. They run easily on the JDS labs Atom stack. I personally enjoy these headphones stock when listening to vocal tracks. I dont usually EQ my headphones, but they need it when listening to electronic music for example.
 

sejarzo

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Thanks! Do planar magnetic headphones have a difference (sense of) sound compared to traditional headphones? Was wondering if they are worth a try. HD6XX are my most used at the moment.

I used HD600s for 11+ years because I thought nothing else was really worth the extra expenditure. When I found a deal on some lightly used HE400i with the Brainwavz leather pads, I jumped on them, and within a couple of months, sold the old HD600s. After a year, though, the edginess in the presence region did start to grate on me...and I bought a lightly used pair of HD6XX. Now they are the cans I use nearly all the time.

There is a "super clean" quality to the bass on the HE400i with the Brainwavz leather pads that I never sensed on the HD600/6XX. IMHO, on rock/pop that tends to be overboosted in the presence region, the HE400i needs EQ much more than the HD600/6XX to avoid fatigue. There is a sensation of a wider soundstage with the HE400i on multitracked studio recordings, but my impession that's just an illusion that as Amir notes might be enhanced by group delay issues.

When I listen to cleanly recorded acoustic/orchestral music, it's hard for me to say which is better--because I know that some spaces sound brighter than others. It's really a question of taste at that point.
 

GWolfman

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I used HD600s for 11+ years because I thought nothing else was really worth the extra expenditure. When I found a deal on some lightly used HE400i with the Brainwavz leather pads, I jumped on them, and within a couple of months, sold the old HD600s. After a year, though, the edginess in the presence region did start to grate on me...and I bought a lightly used pair of HD6XX. Now they are the cans I use nearly all the time.

There is a "super clean" quality to the bass on the HE400i with the Brainwavz leather pads that I never sensed on the HD600/6XX. IMHO, on rock/pop that tends to be overboosted in the presence region, the HE400i needs EQ much more than the HD600/6XX to avoid fatigue. There is a sensation of a wider soundstage with the HE400i on multitracked studio recordings, but my impession that's just an illusion that as Amir notes might be enhanced by group delay issues.

When I listen to cleanly recorded acoustic/orchestral music, it's hard for me to say which is better--because I know that some spaces sound brighter than others. It's really a question of taste at that point.
Thanks, much appreciated!
 

Autechre

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For an EQ newbie like myself using Oratory's settings, if I wanted to add more bass, I just need to add extra dB to the 'Low Shelf' (105 Hz) band? Would I also need to change the preamp gain?
 

Jimbob54

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For an EQ newbie like myself using Oratory's settings, if I wanted to add more bass, I just need to add extra dB to the 'Low Shelf' (105 Hz) band? Would I also need to change the preamp gain?

Basically yes and yes. If the bass shelf is the highest adjustment in the whole EQ, you probably want your pre amp to be around the same but a reduction- so if you up your bass shelf to 10db, your preamp should be around -10db. It gets more complicated if you have loads of large peaks and troughs across the whole range. If you set it maybe 1db more than the shelf level to be safe. Or dont, and just watch/ listen for clipping.
 

paolomo

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For an EQ newbie like myself using Oratory's settings, if I wanted to add more bass, I just need to add extra dB to the 'Low Shelf' (105 Hz) band? Would I also need to change the preamp gain?
I agree with Jimbob54: yes and yes, and experiment. The fun part about EQ is that you get to tweak it and tune it (as you are doing). I don't think any presets are written in stone, they are starting points. Have fun!
 

Autechre

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Basically yes and yes. If the bass shelf is the highest adjustment in the whole EQ, you probably want your pre amp to be around the same but a reduction- so if you up your bass shelf to 10db, your preamp should be around -10db. It gets more complicated if you have loads of large peaks and troughs across the whole range. If you set it maybe 1db more than the shelf level to be safe. Or dont, and just watch/ listen for clipping.
I agree with Jimbob54: yes and yes, and experiment. The fun part about EQ is that you get to tweak it and tune it (as you are doing). I don't think any presets are written in stone, they are starting points. Have fun!

Thank you very much. Yes, I found EQ quite intimidating at first, I won't lie. But I'm learning as I go with the SoundSource app for MacOS.
 

bobbooo

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But THE question remains... Is Sundara's performance-vs-price worth upgrading from HE400i (2020)?

Probably not - 86/100 predicted preference rating for the HE400i 2020 vs 90/100 for the Sundara. And from the HE4XX? Definitely not (89/100 preference rating). And then if you use EQ (that's well-done from properly performed measurements, such as Oratory's), most definitely not (despite what anyone says about chimerical 'technicalities' that they mistakenly believe EQ can't account for).
 
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AdamG

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Thank you for the great review Amir! Ive had these headphone for about 2 weeks now and I completely agree that these lack bass. They run easily on the JDS labs Atom stack. I personally enjoy these headphones stock when listening to vocal tracks. I dont usually EQ my headphones, but they need it when listening to electronic music for example.
Welcome Aboard @Fvu31.
 

senji

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@amirm can you make a post on how do you create EQ for any headphone? I understand the end results are largely personal taste, but it would be very valuable to know how do you make those choices. Do you adjust EQ based on the FR curve? Many thanks!
 

lxlx

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Yes he does, and explained in videos...
You can go fancier with oratory 1990, which is also based on FR. Or you make it KISS and a bit of bass = amirm :)
 
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