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Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

cowsgomoo2002

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They may measure and sound well but Hifiman is known for subpar durability of headphones. So many Amazon reviews mention poor build quality or something breaking after N months (any Hifiman model) that I'm not even going to consider this brand.

I wonder how my DT770 Pro 80 Ohm measure, maybe someone sends them to Amir? With Oratory1990 EQ settings they are really nice. At least in Europe, they seem to be the most popular closed-back headphones. This can make a good point of reference for other measurements.

Beyerdynamic driver consistency is known to be bad and you can't RMA that. At least Hifiman has good RMA policies.
 

KiyPhi

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Ou it's there on every single measurements performed on all different hats so not really head dependant. I said not great, take a look at AEON RT for reference but not great and having a need to add lots of bust in sub and lower bass region translates to bad. That is if you prefer to have sub bass (which I do) or want to follow Harman curve (I don't). If you don't want either of that than distortion in low end is perfectly fine, still planars can do a lot better regarding both. Yes you ware very clear that you still have lot to learn.
I don't like the Aeon RT. Noire sounds better but both have occlusion effect. That isn't in the measurements but make them not great for me. And the roll off isn't in every measurement in total though as the on head measurements show it is dependant on the head, like a ton of headphones are. And you can have sub bass and Harman, they aren't mutually exclusive. If you read the paper, they don't include below 50Hz in the model. Let's not forget that the model also states that bass is the most subjective section and should be adjusted to preference. The main curve is the the bass shelf most preferred. Trained listener or not, the bass region varies.

I think you are the one with a lot to learn. Nice try though.

Edit: In an attempt to be helpful, I strongly recommend anyone wanting to learn about headphones look into Carl Poldy's book on them. It is a bit higher level though so some background knowledge is helpful. General knowledge of circuits is also helpful when it comes to headphones.
 
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Astrozombie

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Is it a planar thing? A Hifi-man thing? I remember when I had the HE-400 I sold them due to lack of bass. I kinda wish I kept them around though as I now have better amps to try them with.
 

Acerun

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Is it a planar thing? A Hifi-man thing? I remember when I had the HE-400 I sold them due to lack of bass. I kinda wish I kept them around though as I now have better amps to try them with.
Solderman called the 560s a "fixed" 400i
 

YSC

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Great, it looks like they are following better to the diffuse field curve ?
 

olimon0

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Yes, it is! You can transform any cheap & bad headphone into audiophile quality by using EQ.

Yeah i bought the 9 Dollar Sony Headphones and with eq they are amazing. Thight and controlled bass, massive soundstage and everything sounds so clear and just „right“. Like amir said in his review, i think 90% will not notice any difference between high end and these headphones.
 

solderdude

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Solderman called the 560s a "fixed" 400i

That was years ago. Both HE400 and Sundara have had (pad) revisions which change the sound signature so all bets are off now when it concerns my remarks in the past ;)
 
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tankas

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Yes, the infamous quality control of Hifiman. I bought these, the comfort is crap compared to AKG K712 and Ananda. Was hard to sit on longer sessions up to an hour etc. Liked the sound very much. But one of the drivers had some extra noise. Returned to the dealer, and they didn't had a replacement in stock with waiting time up to two months. Decided to get Ananda instead :facepalm:
 

DanTheMan

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To me, these look like the edge the 650 by a micron. I’d likely be happy with either forever, but since I have one I’m staying put.
 

AntoniusRoses

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I have had a Sundara driven by topping L30, which I decided to get rid of after only 2 weeks. The sound was good, but after a roughly 30 mins of listening session the drivers start to make some weird crackling sound, resembling that when you rub a plastic shopping bag. Had absolutely no idea what that came from, tried touching metal bars to remove statics, no use; turned amp on and off, it still cracks; tried completely disconnect the headphone, the crackling sound remains for a while. Maybe it's due to temperature difference since the openness isn't great and my ear gets sweaty, but I've never experienced anything similar with k371(have to say it's much more comfortable, stability is good as well)
 

0RF30

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oratory1990's measurement looks generally similar, at a 'high level' view

View attachment 124268

Those are old pads version measurements. 2020 version with pad revision : https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8r9im6d3s5zglk/Hifiman Sundara (revised earpads, preliminary).pdf?dl=0 , but oratory1990 only made the EQ for this version, not measurements.

But THE question remains... Is Sundara's performance-vs-price worth upgrading from HE400i (2020)?

Sundara's are more detailed, better build, better comfort, slams harder, later bass roll off. Ok-ish without EQ except for sub-bass related music genres.

HE-400i 2020 have a better soundstage (lateral and front) and better instrument separation. Better imaging too. Pretty cool with oratory1990 EQ (with taste adjusted bass shelf), very weak bass with no EQ.

Both benefits medium EQ for single vocalist tracks.

With EQ HE-400i 2020 are better than HE-4XX (in technical abilities). Comfort and bass (without EQ) are better on HE-4XX.

With no EQ, Sennheiser 560s are better allrounders IMAO (I mean better balance in compromises, and better non EQ FR), even if they don't reach resolving ability/details of the Sundara, nor the soundstage/imaging/separation qualities of the HE-400i 2020. They're very natural sounding. Soundstage is a bit weird on 560s (on Sundara too).

So to subjectively answer the question, I'll stick with EQed HE-400i 2020, I find myself listening to them much more than the Sundara, the soundstage/imaging/separation benefits of the HE-400i make my listening experience much more enjoyable than the extra details of the Sundara.
 
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Nango

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I have had a Sundara driven by topping L30, which I decided to get rid of after only 2 weeks. The sound was good, but after a roughly 30 mins of listening session the drivers start to make some weird crackling sound, resembling that when you rub a plastic shopping bag. Had absolutely no idea what that came from, tried touching metal bars to remove statics, no use; turned amp on and off, it still cracks; tried completely disconnect the headphone, the crackling sound remains for a while. Maybe it's due to temperature difference since the openness isn't great and my ear gets sweaty, but I've never experienced anything similar with k371(have to say it's much more comfortable, stability is good as well)

This is known as the "offset issue" and it happened with the very very first batches they sold. As I remember well they swapped for free for new ones at that time.
 

KiyPhi

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Sad enough the endorsers of Ananda are also "right", despite the review ;-) ....,.
Possibly because the issues there aren't really relevant to a listener is most cases. The distortion is fine up until the 114 measurements which is mostly in the mids which you should never hit even with EQ. The bass distortion was shown with a broken seal and can't be taken at value for those who get a good seal. The measurements I have seen with a good seal show enough distortion headroom with bass that it is fine to EQ as well. Otherwise the measurements looked fine. If you want to mention the seal, look at the AKG K371 which was measured and praised despite having a much worse variation person to person and an even worse bass response when the seal is broken as it starts to drop off all the way up around 200Hz in my experience. The review is not super great and the headphone sounds good.

There is also comfort, it is a comfortable headphone. Sundara is better per dollar and if more comfortable to someone, they should get it over the Ananda because it sounds better and is cheaper. But slamming the Ananda because of Amir's review when others who have measured the headphone had better reviews is incorrect. Don't take one thing in isolation, use this as a data point. Amir's review is never the gospel no matter if it is praise or otherwise since it is the measurement of one unit by one person and it happens in this case to not line up with the others.
 
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