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Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

Music1969

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I guess it doesn't necessarily mean its the mic ?

By 'problem with fixture', @solderdude I guess this includes my ear geometry?

I need to figure a way to rule out problem with mic. Measure with a speaker perhaps - this takes out my ear/fixture
 

solderdude

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mic in ear measurements cannot be trusted for this kind of measurements. They are fine for making music recordings.
Could be positioning in the ear, could be mic, could be a combination. No way to tell. You need to get those variables out of the equation.

I suggest to look for driver equality you use a CD and mount 1 on the mics in the hole, make sure it is well sealed.
Then measure both sides in the exact same position with some slight pressure from the CD on the pads using just one of the mics.
 
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MayaTlab

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I guess it doesn't necessarily mean its the mic ?

No. If it's something like this : https://soundprofessionals.com/product/MS-TFB-2/
it means then that the ear canal is open and the mics somewhere in the concha. The difference you see between the L/R channels in the range in question could come from the interference of the canal and mic position on the results (such effect can be tested either by using probe tube mics and pulling them progressively out while measuring headphones at each interval, or by comparing open and blocked - with an earplug - ear canal measurements with in-concha mics).
Blocked ear canal entrance measurements can be more indicative of the delivered channel matching up to a few kHz, particularly for some headphones, but not necessarily of the manufacturing quality.
A simple flat plate rig is more appropriate for these tests - just make sure that it allows you to keep the clamping force and position reasonably constant when switching channels.
 
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Music1969

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Here we go guys. Wish me luck LOL

6459DB99-DC2D-4D0C-A5E4-3903E6CFBB4D.jpeg
 

Music1969

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No. If it's something like this : https://soundprofessionals.com/product/MS-TFB-2/
it means then that the ear canal is open and the mics somewhere in the concha
Its the Mk2 - you can see it provides seal to ear canal.

 

MayaTlab

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Music1969

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Interestingly, here is no DSP vs oratory EQ vs crinacle AutoEQ

Not a simulation of their EQ but actually applying their EQ to the measurement signal and measuring what comes out of Sundara drivers

EQ doesn't help the ~6kHz dip that is in everyone's measurements, including @solderdude

1666621366585.png
 

JanesJr1

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I suggest to also lower 10kHz by approx. 6dB.

fr-sund-2021.png


This 'smoothes' the treble.
I am mystified by the inconsistent freq curves for the Sundara here, Crinacle, Oracle, Amir. Amir and Oratory show typical 10k deep test-head notch, but Amir has narrow spike upwards between 6-7 kHz that doesn't show elsewhere. Here you're talking about offsetting a 10k big spike UPward with a -6dB EQ. What am I missing at 10k? And is Amir's 6k spike real, but just too narrow to EQ?
 

solderdude

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Totally different test fixtures.
Most HATS have a dip at 10kHz (at least when they comply to a certain standard). That standard may not be the same as your ears.
Mine does not comply to (any) standards and there is no 'smoothing' applied.
Take my measurements for what they are... an amateur extremely low budget attempt to characterize the sound from a headphone not hindered by having to comply to any standards. I fully stand by my measurements.

One should not EQ high Q dips or peaks anyway. Only the 'general' deviations and even those have a tolerance band where one should EQ in (amplitude wise).
 

JanesJr1

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Totally different test fixtures.
Most HATS have a dip at 10kHz (at least when they comply to a certain standard). That standard may not be the same as your ears.
Mine does not comply to (any) standards and there is no 'smoothing' applied.
Take my measurements for what they are... an amateur extremely low budget attempt to characterize the sound from a headphone not hindered by having to comply to any standards. I fully stand by my measurements.

One should not EQ high Q dips or peaks anyway. Only the 'general' deviations and even those have a tolerance band where one should EQ in (amplitude wise).
Thanks for the reply. But am I wrong, the discussion above points to an UP-spike at 10 kHz, worthy of a -6 dB EQ?
 

solderdude

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Yes, that is my finding both measured and subjectively found.
As this peak is exactly in the '10kHz dip' caused by the standard fake ear/pinna those expensive HATS do not show it. Doesn't mean it isn't there.

Well... HATS do show it. When there is a peak you can see the dip at 10kHz is not as deep as is seen with headphones that do not have a peak there.
Just have a look at other measurements made with those fixtures to get a feel about how deep the dip should be in those measurements.
 

Music1969

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Thanks for the reply. But am I wrong, the discussion above points to an UP-spike at 10 kHz, worthy of a -6 dB EQ?
That's what his measurement shows.

Mine shows a dip at 10kHz but peaks above

Unsmoothed below. Above was using psychoacoustic smoothing

Big dip 5-6kHz that shows up in all measurements, left and right and with multiple-reseats

1666629456126.png
 

MayaTlab

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That's what his measurement shows.

Mine shows a dip at 10kHz but peaks above

Unsmoothed below. Above was using psychoacoustic smoothing

Big dip 5-6kHz that shows up in all measurements, left and right and with multiple-reseats

I would be very careful about using the mics you own for relative measurements between headphones above a certain frequency, let alone absolute measurements ("peaks" or "dips") : https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ted-harman-oe-curve-at-home.28130/post-975888
For relative measurements between over-ears, it's good practice in my opinion to have mics that are at least at the ear canal entrance. Then comes the question of whether or not the canal should be open or closed.
For absolute measurements I don't think that anything other probe tube mics can be exploitable at higher frequencies (ie close to eardrum).
 

Robbo99999

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Interestingly, here is no DSP vs oratory EQ vs crinacle AutoEQ

Not a simulation of their EQ but actually applying their EQ to the measurement signal and measuring what comes out of Sundara drivers

EQ doesn't help the ~6kHz dip that is in everyone's measurements, including @solderdude

View attachment 239173
For EQ purposes I wouldn't really use a flat plate - you're better off using Oratory's EQ based on GRAS measurements, even if of course it's not a measurement of your individual unit (so unit to unit variation remains as an innaccuracy). Or if you don't like the Harman Curve then use Oratory's measurements and EQ them to any target of your choice. And you can also experiment with changing the customisation filters that Oratory includes in his EQ's, so you can tune the EQ from the Harman EQ starting point.
 

Music1969

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For EQ purposes I wouldn't really use a flat plate - you're better off using Oratory's EQ based on GRAS measurements, even if of course it's not a measurement of your individual unit (so unit to unit variation remains as an innaccuracy). Or if you don't like the Harman Curve then use Oratory's measurements and EQ them to any target of your choice. And you can also experiment with changing the customisation filters that Oratory includes in his EQ's, so you can tune the EQ from the Harman EQ starting point.
Noted I've been using oratory and crinacle, that's why I compared in my measurement.

Interesting, with my 'flat plate method' if I EQ'ed the orange curve (no DSP) to lift bass and boost the 1-4kHz region, that would actually align with oratory and crinacle measurements well (the biggest issues anyway - not the micro details)

The dip at 6kHz shows in everyone's measurement but I don't see them actually applying their EQ and showing the 'after' measurement with EQ in place.

I think oratory just shows you the expected FR after EQ ?

crinacle also doesn't show any measurements with EQ applied ?

AutoEQ doesn't measure anything at all. All just simulated .

I wonder if they would still have the ~5.7 kHz dip - group delay is very messy at ~5.7 kHz in my measurement.

Maybe a reason EQ'ing at ~5.7 kHz has no effect in my measurement ?

1666666876604.png


1666666615400.png


index.php
 
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JanesJr1

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That's what his measurement shows.

Mine shows a dip at 10kHz but peaks above

Unsmoothed below. Above was using psychoacoustic smoothing

Big dip 5-6kHz that shows up in all measurements, left and right and with multiple-reseats

View attachment 239185
Thank you! You meant what you said and said what you meant. Time to ditch the oscilloscope and clean the wax out of my ears for an EarQ.
 
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