Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

[Dealux]

Science guy reckons HIFIMAN make shit headphones and the Sundaras particularly shit. Can the science team take a look: -

he reckon's you got to be a noob to reckon these are anything but garbage....

The updated Sundara sounds closer to what Resolve measured in his pad swap video (it's not as peaky as it looks on Amir's graph in reality). Also, the small wiggles in the FR don't matter. They're not audible. What is audible is some kind of peak in the upper treble which makes the Sundara somewhat harsh or sibilant but this driver maintains a high level of precision and timbre accuracy in its treble response.

It's a headphone that's far from perfect, sure, but I wouldn't call it garbage. There are far worse headphones that are much more expensive.

Edit: He's also assuming that the graph is 100% accurate or something, which is never the case. And he's likely only listened to the Sundara for a few minutes in a store if at all.

 

[Somafunk]

Sharur likes to take an opposing view on well reviewed headphone/iem’s as it raises interactions on his channel, he’s basically shit-posting for clicks and giggles

 

[Garrincha]

Edit: He's also assuming that the graph is 100% accurate or something, which is never the case. And he's likely only listened to the Sundara for a few minutes in a store if at all.

This Sharur guy was advocating for years the Etymotics, then had somehow a revelation (probably heard for the first time of the Harman research) and is now advocating the Moondrop Variations and every headphone/IEM having the slightest divergence from the Harman curve is now trash. Most importantly, he does not listen to any of these, just making judgments purely from the FR. A bit simplistic.

 

[solderdude]

Science guy reckons HIFIMAN make shit headphones and the Sundaras particularly shit. Can the science team take a look: -

They just need the treble peak removed. Then these hifiman sound fine (be it a bit bass-light, which also can be EQ'ed.
There is a substantial peak between 8kHz and 10kHz. Nearly all hifiman have such a treble peak there except Susvara and early HE560.
Not shown here because of the dip in the artificial ear which may well not be at the same frequency as someone else's ear and the reason why some don't hear it or are not bothered by it and others don't like the 'sharp' edge on some recordings.
Total shit they are not, best VFM or best performance in their price class probably also not.
Somewhat better than HE400SE or HE400i 2020

My gripe would be the lack of swivel (needs better headband).

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Total shit they are not, best VFM or best performance in their price class probably also not.

In your opinion, sub $500, which ones are the best VFM?

 

[D00M]

Sharur likes to take an opposing view on well reviewed headphone/iem’s as it raises interactions on his channel, he’s basically shit-posting for clicks and giggles

I wasn't familiar with this YouTuber. I checked the linked video. Luckily the videos are only 2-3 minutes. No real content. Just be controversial for click bait.

He should be a politician. Just argue that anyone who have differing opinion are dumb, stupid, shit, etc. (I guess I'm one of them since I own the Sundara)

 

[Dealux]

They just need the treble peak removed. Then these hifiman sound fine (be it a bit bass-light, which also can be EQ'ed.
There is a substantial peak between 8kHz and 10kHz. Nearly all hifiman have such a treble peak there except Susvara and early HE560.
Not shown here because of the dip in the artificial ear which may well not be at the same frequency as someone else's ear and the reason why some don't hear it or are not bothered by it and others don't like the 'sharp' edge on some recordings.
Total shit they are not, best VFM or best performance in their price class probably also not.
Somewhat better than HE400SE or HE400i 2020

My gripe would be the lack of swivel (needs better headband).

Most accurate Sundara description. I f'd myself when I removed the dampening fabric from the pads that's normally covering the front of the driver when I wanted to achieve slightly more treble extension. The peak is even worse like that lol.

I actually think the Sundara might be one of the most accurate headphones regardless of price, especially in the treble. It sounds fuller than many headphones which dip a lot in the treble but it's still slightly grainy unfortunately.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Most accurate Sundara description. I f'd myself when I removed the dampening fabric from the pads that's normally covering the front of the driver when I wanted to achieve slightly more treble extension. The peak is even worse like that lol.

I actually think the Sundara might be one of the most accurate headphones regardless of price, especially in the treble. It sounds fuller than many headphones which dip a lot in the treble but it's still slightly grainy unfortunately.

It is curious .
I am a DIY tinkerer, I modified my EDXS for example.
I never thought of touching the Sundara.
With my Mojo, just sound lovely.
Perfect, No!
Lovely, Yes.

 

[solderdude]

In your opinion, sub $500, which ones are the best VFM?

There can be several depending on what properties of headphones one values the most, whether or not EQ is allowed etc.
And what one person finds best VFM may be a horror for someone else.

Its like asking what car is 'best' in a certain price class.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

There can be several depending on what properties of headphones one values the most, whether or not EQ is allowed etc.
And what one person finds best VFM may be a horror for someone else.

Its like asking what car is 'best' in a certain price class.

I understand, but value for money is different to best.
I don't like EQ , I avoid it if I can, or keep it to a minimum if possible.
Knowing that, what do you think is value for money with no to minimal EQ needed.
Thanx

 

[Turambar]

The Sundara?.

 

[solderdude]

That may depend on your tonal preferences and if one allows for passive filtering, wants to include IEM's and is not bothered by some subbass roll-off, upper treble roll-off etc.
There is no such thing as best VFM. There can be several. That would totally be defined on what one thinks is best and the price range.

I have several headphones (often modified or filtered) that I like, some are cheap, some are more expensive.
Maybe best VFM is my tricked out HD681 (it was € 15,-) but maybe my 2nd hand HD800 with EQ is best in SQ and thus gives me the best sound in that price class.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

That may depend on your tonal preferences and if one allows for passive filtering, wants to include IEM's and is not bothered by some subbass roll-off, upper treble roll-off etc.
There is no such thing as best VFM. There can be several. That would totally be defined on what one thinks is best and the price range.

I have several headphones (often modified or filtered) that I like, some are cheap, some are more expensive.
Maybe best VFM is my tricked out HD681 (it was € 15,-) but maybe my 2nd hand HD800 with EQ is best in SQ and thus gives me the best sound in that price class.

Let's leave "best" out.
that's a tall order.
a list of a few would do.
I have not heard HD800 yet, but even a used one is more than $500.
I really liked the Sundara , but it is gone now. I like my EDXS, for now. At CanJam, I heard HE1000 and Ananda against them. I would say the EDXS is waaay better VFM . not better , but better value.
What really grabbed me was Audeze LCD-XC with no EQ , fed by my Hugo2 .
I am hoping to find a used one for no more than £750.
what can I say, I am thrifty !

 

[solderdude]

There are a few headphones I kept that sound good to me but all of them require modifications to do so or filters or cost over € 600.-
I used to set a € 300,- limit for headphones myself but realized that the amount of money spent and lost when selling was silly.
So went to audition expensive ones and stretched my budget.

I can only post what I found to be good headphones to my ears (comfort + sound) not what is best VFM of these.
There are very good sounding headphones for low prices but don't use them as I have better sounding ones.
So while I have high VFM headphones (IMO) they ultimately are a waste of money for me as I don't use them (sit in a box waiting to be sold or just to keep)

Ended up with (EQ'ed but not to Harman) HD800 which is what I prefer (others may not) but also like DT1990 (with A pads and treble filter) and DT1770 (modified, filtered) for closed. Also really like my DT1350 (different pads and EQ) and some cheap but substantially modified headphones as well.
When I would have smaller ears and the things were not microphonic I would think OLLO headphones are great. They are not for everyone though, neither are DT1350.
Lets not forget the (modified + filtered) HD58X and filtered HD560S which are safe bets.
HD650 (EQ'ed) is also one and so is an EQ'ed DT990.
Have HE400i (2020) HE400SE (stealth magnets), Edition XX, Audeze Sine (different pads + filtered), T50RP (modified + EQ) and heard measured many others but they don't do for me what dynamics do. I do not play very loud which is when most Planars offer advantages.
The Sundara is just slightly better than HE400SE IMO.

 

[Somafunk]

Well……this could be another expense I did not plan for.

Was just about to write a few words for a review of the Dunu Vulkan’s iem I’ve been listening to for the previous few weeks on the amp3 website where I purchased them and I was idly browsing their clearance section and there’s a pair of open box sundaras for £220 down from £300. Seems daft not to doesn’t it?…………if I don’t like them I’m doubtful I’d lose much if I move them on and I can eq them with roon or my mojo 2. I really like my 7hz timeless so I guess my planar cherry is already broken in.

The only on ear set I have is the AirPods max, they’re great for what they do but n+1 is always the answer?………..right?

Edit : 1 hour later and I found an open box return on Amazon for £189, cant go wrong at that price and they’ll be delivered on Sunday

 

[Somafunk]

Listening to the sundara through my mojo 2 & poly, I’d go as far and say they’re the purchase of the year for the £189/$220 I paid for an open box unit (Amazon), not a mark on them and all the internal packaging was all intact and unopened so I guess someone must have took one look at them and thought “Nahhhh” so returned them. The mojo 2 has plenty of juice to power them as I’m at 65% volume using +7db at 20hz sloping down to 125hz which gives good sub bass and +2db at 3khz sloping down to 125hz which has opened them up, that’s enough tinkering for now till I have more time with them on various genres but I’m very chuffed with the casual impulse purchase at that price.

 

[Music1969]

While the Sundara may be an upgrade from the HE-560, I have to say I’m disappointed with the build quality and QC. The first set I recently purchased had a defective headband (right side was loose and would not stay in position). I promptly returned those and the replacement set had the worst channel imbalance I’ve ever encountered in a headphone. That one went back as well. I did very much like the sound of the first set, but the lack of quality control is a shame.

I recently wrote near identical in the HE400se thread

Hreat SQ but poor quality control due to ~3.6dB driver imbalance ! I would settle for 1dB but 3.6dB is wild.

At not sound at all from left driver at 7.5kHz sine wave tone LOL

Hifiman HE400SE Review (Headphone)

If there is it will be very small. Only the shape and type of magnet changed AFAIK. I haven't cut the cable open but as this is a dual entry headphone it would make sense there are 4 wires all the way to the connector.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Paolo]

To all the Sundara lovers. I mean people who have or had them and liked the specific qualities of those.

I’m looking for something able to give the same sensations with more detail, in order of importance:

• Same or better ”effortless delivery” of sound, meaning that what I find special about the Sundara over all the other HPs I’ve tried is that the sound rarely seems to come out of a driver, it seems simply “present in the room”. Except when it clips, of course.

• The perceived detail of this cans is the best I’ve tried, but i know it can be better.

• Same or more spacious soundstage.

• The punch is important, but to a point.

• The less EQ required, the better. I like a bit less bass than the Harman curve suggest and use EQ on the desk, but there I prefer the speakers. Headphones are almost always driven by my iPhone, at home and with the apple dongle since portable amps are useless and impractical for the levels I’m listening to, but if really needed I can use one, either my hipdac, or something else, still, better if it is not needed.

I usually don’t have the means to try before buying, there’s a shop here that has a very limited assortment, and I don’t know of others nearby…
My experience is based on tens, not hundreds , of dynamic drivers HPs and almost no other planar.

Price can be around 1.000 €, a bit more maybe, less if possible, but really I’m not setting a budget, just looking for something that will make me feel again the wonder of the first listening with the Sundara, without reaching top of the line prices like 2K or more.

I also happen to have a small head, for instance the Sundara is set to the minimum excursion and the pads completely overlaps my lower jawbone, I really like the self-adjusting headbands of products like the OLLO’s. Of course this one is the least important factor.

So, Ananda, Arya, HE6, LCD? What have you used, not tried for an hour, than can fit the bill?
Really not interested in opinions made by reading forums and graphs, I’m already doing that by myself

 

[Nango]

I recently wrote near identical in the HE400se thread

Hreat SQ but poor quality control due to ~3.6dB driver imbalance ! I would settle for 1dB but 3.6dB is wild.

At not sound at all from left driver at 7.5kHz sine wave tone LOL

Hifiman HE400SE Review (Headphone)

If there is it will be very small. Only the shape and type of magnet changed AFAIK. I haven't cut the cable open but as this is a dual entry headphone it would make sense there are 4 wires all the way to the connector.

www.audiosciencereview.com

The later you buy a newer release from Hifiman the more you will find they build those with parts from other returned items.

 

[Paolo]

The later you buy a newer release from Hifiman the more you will find they build those with parts from other returned items.

This can be true for every product on the market.

The problem with HifiMan is they just don’t have the same metrics, or feelings or whatever for quality that others have.
Even the Susvara is a cheap looking device, allegedly (I have not tried it) redeemed by an excellent audio quality. Something that Focal, Sennheiser or even Sony would never think possible. My Sundara 2020 are beautiful, but it seems more by chance than by design goal, and this is obvious when you look at the new headband, the same of the HE400, worth of a 20$ headphone, at least from the look of it…