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Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

Garrincha

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Thanks a ton for your reply. One follow up question. So if the balanced cable solves this for me, what more can I add to this set up? Hidizs S9 Pro is a DAC and an AMP. So let's say I add another DAC then will the S9 Pro work only like an AMP? Similarly, if I add an external AMP then will S9 Pro act like a DAC? I was thinking if the S9 Pro solves my AMP need then may be I can get a JDS Atom DAC.
Let´s assume with the balanced cable there will be enough power. What do you need another DAC for? The S9 Pro measures fine, there is absolutely no need, especially if you only listen from your phone/PC/Mac. I also strongly recommend using EQ, even if the Sundara follows the Harman target quite nicely, but in the bass region EQ does help a lot.
 
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Jimbob54

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Thanks a ton for your reply. One follow up question. So if the balanced cable solves this for me, what more can I add to this set up? Hidizs S9 Pro is a DAC and an AMP. So let's say I add another DAC then will the S9 Pro work only like an AMP? Similarly, if I add an external AMP then will S9 Pro act like a DAC? I was thinking if the S9 Pro solves my AMP need then may be I can get a JDS Atom DAC.
If there is enough power from the S9 then there should be no need for either a new dac or amp.

You cant use a separate dac before the S9, its only got digital input. You could use the 3.5mm port of the S9 to drive a more powerful amp. But that would only be useful if the S9 with balanced cable isn't powerful enough.
 

D00M

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Thanks a ton for your reply. One follow up question. So if the balanced cable solves this for me, what more can I add to this set up? Hidizs S9 Pro is a DAC and an AMP. So let's say I add another DAC then will the S9 Pro work only like an AMP? Similarly, if I add an external AMP then will S9 Pro act like a DAC? I was thinking if the S9 Pro solves my AMP need then may be I can get a JDS Atom DAC.
Although I don't have this product, here are my thoughts. For Amp, there can be noticeable difference in power output and volume. For DAC, unless there is some specific feature you are looking for, these entry level DAC are very similar.

You already know your S9 is marginal in power. It might be fixed with special balanced cable for Sundara. Not sure how much that cable cost, but I am guessing $30-50 USD. And this might not work in the future if you upgrade headphone. Something that might need more power, or a headphone that uses different cable termination plug.

If I were you, I rather spend money to get a headphone amp. And use S9 as DAC.
 

Spojkovic

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I just want you guys let you know, i am very satisfied with Sundara
I love it from day one
Im using it with Topping E30 + Topping A50s and im using adjusted Oratory1990 EQ and it sounds the best
1660167949998.png


Other than that, i have Sennheiser HD650, those are really good too, then i have Beyerdynamic DT880 250 ohm Black Edition (maybe only cheaper Beyers without crazy spike in highs), those are very good too on xDuoo Mt-602 with some soviet tubes, i think Röhre Voskhod from 80s
All with some modified Oratory1990 EQ, but Sundaras are the best.
Almost forgot to mention Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 250 ohm, im very disapointed, insane spikes in highs, i tried EQ it but i was unable to do it without suppresing detail, i had to do paper towel mod + EQ so i can use them, but still fatiguing... i dont know if those headphones are for deaf people or what
 

Haruko

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you might as well try blessing 2 (not dusk) and never touch eq again
 

Garrincha

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you might as well try blessing 2 (not dusk) and never touch eq again
IEMs are simply different from headphones. Furthermore, the Blessing 2 (not dusk) is a bit weak on bass and both (dusk and standard) are also not totally Harmanesque, that would be Variations.
 

Garrincha

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I just want you guys let you know, i am very satisfied with Sundara
I love it from day one
Im using it with Topping E30 + Topping A50s and im using adjusted Oratory1990 EQ and it sounds the best
View attachment 223526

Other than that, i have Sennheiser HD650, those are really good too, then i have Beyerdynamic DT880 250 ohm Black Edition (maybe only cheaper Beyers without crazy spike in highs), those are very good too on xDuoo Mt-602 with some soviet tubes, i think Röhre Voskhod from 80s
All with some modified Oratory1990 EQ, but Sundaras are the best.
Almost forgot to mention Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 250 ohm, im very disapointed, insane spikes in highs, i tried EQ it but i was unable to do it without suppresing detail, i had to do paper towel mod + EQ so i can use them, but still fatiguing... i dont know if those headphones are for deaf people or what
I agree on most of this. I also have the Sundara and the HD650 and prefer the Sundara. I as well use the oratoy EQ, sometimes even +10dB at 28 and 105 Hz, really nice. This way there is neither lack nor distortion of the bass, which can be checked e.g. with the track Chameleon by Trentemøller. I am very satisfied with the sound, but continue to ask myself if more expensive headphones can improve the sound quality still ( HE1000V2, HD800S)?
 

Shubhashish

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I agree on most of this. I also have the Sundara and the HD650 and prefer the Sundara. I as well use the oratoy EQ, sometimes even +10dB at 28 and 105 Hz, really nice. This way there is neither lack nor distortion of the bass, which can be checked e.g. with the track Chameleon by Trentemøller. I am very satisfied with the sound, but continue to ask myself if more expensive headphones can improve the sound quality still ( HE1000V2, HD800S)?
Thank you for your reply. I use a Mac and I am finding it really difficult to find a way to EQ this thing. Any suggestions?
 

Shubhashish

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Although I don't have this product, here are my thoughts. For Amp, there can be noticeable difference in power output and volume. For DAC, unless there is some specific feature you are looking for, these entry level DAC are very similar.

You already know your S9 is marginal in power. It might be fixed with special balanced cable for Sundara. Not sure how much that cable cost, but I am guessing $30-50 USD. And this might not work in the future if you upgrade headphone. Something that might need more power, or a headphone that uses different cable termination plug.

If I were you, I rather spend money to get a headphone amp. And use S9 as DAC.
Thank you. This makes sense.
 

Shubhashish

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If there is enough power from the S9 then there should be no need for either a new dac or amp.

You cant use a separate dac before the S9, its only got digital input. You could use the 3.5mm port of the S9 to drive a more powerful amp. But that would only be useful if the S9 with balanced cable isn't powerful enough.
Thank you. Your reply makes sense. I think I will just try to find a way to EQ this thing and get a balanced cable.
 

Shubhashish

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Let´s assume with the balanced cable there will be enough power. What do you need another DAC for? The S9 Pro measures fine, there is absolutely no need, especially if you only listen from your phone/PC/Mac. I also strongly recommend using EQ, even if the Sundara follows the Harman target quite nicely, but in the bass region EQ does help a lot.
Thank you for you reply. Could you suggest. me an app I can use for EQ on my MAC? I am hitting a wall in my search here.
 

Garrincha

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Thank you for you reply. Could you suggest. me an app I can use for EQ on my MAC? I am hitting a wall in my search here.
I use SoundSource. It is a paid app ($39) and very powerful, it has PEQ and an arquive of many headphone EQs in the database. It is also possible and easy to upload any txt file with EQ. I think the app is well worth the money, but it might be possible to find even cracked versions (this is not a recommendation!). You can find more suggestions here: https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq#osx--macos.
Once again, if the balanced cables solves the issue of the lacking power, as it should, I see, contrary to @D00M, no need to get a separate amp. A balanced cable with a 2.5mm jack can be quite cheap, see here:
https://www.amazon.com/FAAEAL-Repla...3538&sprefix=hifiman+balanced,aps,348&sr=8-14
or
 

Haruko

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IEMs are simply different from headphones. Furthermore, the Blessing 2 (not dusk) is a bit weak on bass and both (dusk and standard) are also not totally Harmanesque, that would be Variations.
weak on bass ? you have not heard sundara and hd600 then xD
 

RHO

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weak on bass ? you have not heard sundara and hd600 then xD
Maybe we should define what bass is? (frequency range) Because I get the impression many people mean different thing when talking about bass. Some mean sub-bass, as in everything below ~50Hz when they talk about bass. Some mean everything below 200Hz when talking about bass. And a lack of output between 200Hz and 50Hz would definitely count as a lack in bass for the latter but maybe not for the first, if there's plenty output below 50Hz. While the first could describe something "bassy" or even "muddy" when there's still some elevation above 50Hz while the second will call it "neutral".
 

Haruko

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Maybe we should define what bass is? (frequency range) Because I get the impression many people mean different thing when talking about bass. Some mean sub-bass, as in everything below ~50Hz when they talk about bass. Some mean everything below 200Hz when talking about bass. And a lack of output between 200Hz and 50Hz would definitely count as a lack in bass for the latter but maybe not for the first, if there's plenty output below 50Hz. While the first could describe something "bassy" or even "muddy" when there's still some elevation above 50Hz while the second will call it "neutral".
bass as in bass notes on bass guitars bassoons kick drums, movie FX sub bass and if you want to speak in frequency terms then everything below 120hz i guess... everything above is just the color of the bass.
for me it is crucial to have sub bass bass playing as you might not catch the melody otherwise if upper harmonics are not present you just can't pick melody there...
 

Garrincha

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weak on bass ? you have not heard sundara and hd600 then xD
I have both and clearly EQ is needed to get good bass, but using EQ delivers, especially for the Sundara, excellent bass (everything below 200Hz). The Blessing 2 (non dusk) has clearly too little without EQ.
 

RHO

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bass as in bass notes on bass guitars bassoons kick drums, movie FX sub bass and if you want to speak in frequency terms then everything below 120hz i guess... everything above is just the color of the bass.
for me it is crucial to have sub bass bass playing as you might not catch the melody otherwise if upper harmonics are not present you just can't pick melody there...
It also has a lot to do with the balance between sub-bass and upper bass. Many times the upper bass is a little elevated when the sub-bass is missing. Lowering the upper bass while boosting the sub-bass gives the bass a completely different tonality. Some like that, some don't (it is less "punchy" I guess).
 

RHO

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I have both and clearly EQ is needed to get good bass, but using EQ delivers, especially for the Sundara, excellent bass (everything below 200Hz). The Blessing 2 (non dusk) has clearly too little without EQ.
I have the Dusk and I think the bass is about perfect on it. So I think I would consider the regular Blessing 2 a bit light on the bass.
 

Haider

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Science guy reckons HIFIMAN make shit headphones and the Sundaras particularly shit. Can the science team take a look: -


he reckon's you got to be a noob to reckon these are anything but garbage....
 

Garrincha

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Science guy reckons HIFIMAN make shit headphones and the Sundaras particularly shit. Can the science team take a look: -


he reckon's you got to be a noob to reckon these are anything but garbage....
First of all, there exists EQ and secondly, Sharur is very simplistic in his reasoning, stating that the frequency reponse determines a headphone 100%, which is, as far as I know and many people, including Amir and Toole, subscribe to, not true.

Getting into more detail, this is the measurement of the frequency response of the Sundara by Amir:

index.php


And this the one of the Sennheiser HD 800 S:

index.php


And from the comparison of these two graphs he concludes that the one is full of resonances and the other not?
 
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