HifiMan Sundara - DAC&AMP Questions and Suggestions

[LtCol_Davenport]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum even though it is months that I am consulting for reviews.

Yesterday after many research I decided to pull the trigger and buy my first Hi-Fi headphones and they should arrive today.
As my first Hi-Fi headphones, I have no DAC or AMP, always connected everything to my desktop PC. When started looking for headphones I was thinking to spend more like €200 seeing lots of good stuff on Drop.com. Unfortunately, as someone of you may have noted, I wrote the price in Euro (€) and in Europe Drop lose all of its convenience when you have to add to the price a whapping 25%-ish of import taxes and 30$ of shipping. I then started looking around here and decided to stretch (a lot) my initial budget and buy the Sundara. All of this just to say, I'm kind of "without money", at least for this month.

Starting now with the core of this post, DACs&AMPs.
I saw a couple of well reviewed here of DAC&AMP Combo like the Loxjie D30 but at the moment can't really find it here, but it should cost around €170+shipping (eventually). Also looked at Khadas Tone2 Pro but no luck either in my region, even if I prefer a "desktop solution", don't need portable stuff.
I considered the Topping DX3 Pro that really appeal to me as a single unit but given the price of €220 a stack like a D10s+L30 may be better at just €20-ish more, but let me know if I'm wrong and should consider more this.
If you have other options, preferably reviewed here, will happily take those into consideration!

If considering a stack, I really can't afford it now (nor the DX3) so I will need to buy the AMP first than add a DAC later. Will I lose that much connecting it directly to my PC (given that I have no reference being my first Headphones with AMP)? For what it is worth, it is a custom build one by me and generally I eared it has better audio than commercial laptop, that being sad, I'm sure can't be that good either.

As AMP goes, I will surely take the Topping L30, it seems stellar for its price! But as always, I am open to suggestion.

Regarding DACs I'm more uncertain. What I'm considering are: Topping D10s and E30, otherwise the SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II. If you want to add a couple more I will look those but don't wont to spend more than €150. Now I'll explain what are my thoughts on those.
Topping D10s (€100): I think really great as price wise but some people say the only USB Input can be a limit both in term of connectivity and "clean power". Also can't use it for mobile devices (generally speaking) for power issues.
SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II (€110): This improve on the D10s in both connectivity and the fact that can be separately powered. Measurements to me seems really similar, don't know if I will discern any difference. I do not like the mini-USB, Blue-led display, form factor, the COAX Jitter and the Multi-Tone test, just minor gripes, if it is "the one" you recommend I can ignore those.
Topping E30 (€140): This is definitely the more expensive (40% more) of the group I've selected and also almost my upper limit I imposed to myself. Other than the price, I think it is the one I would like to get. Separate power and data, USB-B input, less jitter and better multi-tone than SMSL. Also, as a bonus, like the idea of E30/L30 stack but purely aesthetics and conceptually speaking. It just bothers me a bit that I have to buy a power adapter (if I don't want to power it through my multi USB Hub) and those are even more money if I consider something like iFi Power (€60, not a cheap upgrade, almost half of its price).
Just for fun, how those compared to something much more expensive like Topping D50s? Is the 2-3 times the money worth it? Because to me seems that other than features, measurements wise, isn't that different if not at all.

So...what do you think? What should I buy and what can match better my Sundara?
Note that, as I sad, I'm in Europe and here Schiit products are impossible to find or extremely overpriced (like double the price) so don't even try recommending those (unfortunately).
Thanks in advance for taking your time in reading and try to help me.

 

[Jimbob54]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum even though it is months that I am consulting for reviews.

Yesterday after many research I decided to pull the trigger and buy my first Hi-Fi headphones and they should arrive today.
As my first Hi-Fi headphones, I have no DAC or AMP, always connected everything to my desktop PC. When started looking for headphones I was thinking to spend more like €200 seeing lots of good stuff on Drop.com. Unfortunately, as someone of you may have noted, I wrote the price in Euro (€) and in Europe Drop lose all of its convenience when you have to add to the price a whapping 25%-ish of import taxes and 30$ of shipping. I then started looking around here and decided to stretch (a lot) my initial budget and buy the Sundara. All of this just to say, I'm kind of "without money", at least for this month.

Starting now with the core of this post, DACs&AMPs.
I saw a couple of well reviewed here of DAC&AMP Combo like the Loxjie D30 but at the moment can't really find it here, but it should cost around €170+shipping (eventually). Also looked at Khadas Tone2 Pro but no luck either in my region, even if I prefer a "desktop solution", don't need portable stuff.
I considered the Topping DX3 Pro that really appeal to me as a single unit but given the price of €220 a stack like a D10s+L30 may be better at just €20-ish more, but let me know if I'm wrong and should consider more this.
If you have other options, preferably reviewed here, will happily take those into consideration!

If considering a stack, I really can't afford it now (nor the DX3) so I will need to buy the AMP first than add a DAC later. Will I lose that much connecting it directly to my PC (given that I have no reference being my first Headphones with AMP)? For what it is worth, it is a custom build one by me and generally I eared it has better audio than commercial laptop, that being sad, I'm sure can't be that good either.

As AMP goes, I will surely take the Topping L30, it seems stellar for its price! But as always, I am open to suggestion.

Regarding DACs I'm more uncertain. What I'm considering are: Topping D10s and E30, otherwise the SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II. If you want to add a couple more I will look those but don't wont to spend more than €150. Now I'll explain what are my thoughts on those.
Topping D10s (€100): I think really great as price wise but some people say the only USB Input can be a limit both in term of connectivity and "clean power". Also can't use it for mobile devices (generally speaking) for power issues.
SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II (€110): This improve on the D10s in both connectivity and the fact that can be separately powered. Measurements to me seems really similar, don't know if I will discern any difference. I do not like the mini-USB, Blue-led display, form factor, the COAX Jitter and the Multi-Tone test, just minor gripes, if it is "the one" you recommend I can ignore those.
Topping E30 (€140): This is definitely the more expensive (40% more) of the group I've selected and also almost my upper limit I imposed to myself. Other than the price, I think it is the one I would like to get. Separate power and data, USB-B input, less jitter and better multi-tone than SMSL. Also, as a bonus, like the idea of E30/L30 stack but purely aesthetics and conceptually speaking. It just bothers me a bit that I have to buy a power adapter (if I don't want to power it through my multi USB Hub) and those are even more money if I consider something like iFi Power (€60, not a cheap upgrade, almost half of its price).
Just for fun, how those compared to something much more expensive like Topping D50s? Is the 2-3 times the money worth it? Because to me seems that other than features, measurements wise, isn't that different if not at all.

So...what do you think? What should I buy and what can match better my Sundara?
Note that, as I sad, I'm in Europe and here Schiit products are impossible to find or extremely overpriced (like double the price) so don't even try recommending those (unfortunately).
Thanks in advance for taking your time in reading and try to help me.

An old phone charger will be fine for the e30. Not one of the super high current ones.

 

[zyghom]

I was using ZEN DAC (there was not enough power) the I bought ZEN CAN - then it was super nice.
But later I sold ZEN and bought Sabaj D5 - now it is perfect solution because Sabaj D5 also works as DAC for my speakers amp.

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

I was using ZEN DAC (there was not enough power) the I bought ZEN CAN - then it was super nice.
But later I sold ZEN and bought Sabaj D5 - now it is perfect solution because Sabaj D5 also works as DAC for my speakers amp.

Interesting. See contradicting opinion on power, I red other says was fine with similar impedance headphone. With power Match On (and maybe balance out?) at max volume was not enough?

For what it is worth, I listening to them with my Apple USB dongle and I definitely need more power, but not that much. My dongle should output around 3-4 mW, the Zen DAC based on the review here on ASR can reach around 250mW IIRC, that’s almost 100x times more.

Also, can I ask why you sold it? You weren’t happy with the sound?

 

[zyghom]

When I started with ZEN DAC I immediately replaced cable with XLR. It became much better then. When I added ZEN CAN it was way better. But then I bought Sabaj D5 for my home stereo and I realized that DAC and amp in Sabaj is enough for me and I can use it as pure DAC for my home speakers amp as well as XLR output into my Sundara. Power from Sabaj D5 is probably similar to ZEN CAN but on the scale to 90 on Sabaj I am not able to listen to it more than 70-75. Sound quality from both: ZEN stack and Sabaj is very similar. So I sold ZEN stack and remained with Sabaj D5.
The power match on ZEN CAN and the xtra bass on ZEN CAN Sundara was much nicer than on ZEN DAC only.

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

When I started with ZEN DAC I immediately replaced cable with XLR. It became much better then. When I added ZEN CAN it was way better. But then I bought Sabaj D5 for my home stereo and I realized that DAC and amp in Sabaj is enough for me and I can use it as pure DAC for my home speakers amp as well as XLR output into my Sundara. Power from Sabaj D5 is probably similar to ZEN CAN but on the scale to 90 on Sabaj I am not able to listen to it more than 70-75. Sound quality from both: ZEN stack and Sabaj is very similar. So I sold ZEN stack and remained with Sabaj D5.
The power match on ZEN CAN and the xtra bass on ZEN CAN Sundara was much nicer than on ZEN DAC only.

Understood. Thanks for your explanation.
Anyway, when you added an XLR cable to the Zen DAC alone, was then enough to drive the Sundara or you still felt the need of more power?

 

[zyghom]

ZEN DAC suffered with XLR as well comparing to ZEN CAN.
And the sound quality was much better from CAN comparing to DAC.
Especially with higher volume.
Oh, one thing that pissed me off on both (DAC and CAN): the first part of the potentiometer (lets say first 10%) the channels (R and L) were completely unequal - to the extent that I needed to play with the power match button. But then, when I wanted to play really really low volume, I had issues with balancing R and L. Both: DAC and CAN. When I moved to Sabaj issue disappeared completely - so not Sundar problem but both ZEN boxes.

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

Thanks again!
Yes, I eared of that issue too. I think I may remain with my Apple Dongle for a while and stack up a bit of money to buy something else.

 

[Eddiemus Maximus]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum even though it is months that I am consulting for reviews.

Yesterday after many research I decided to pull the trigger and buy my first Hi-Fi headphones and they should arrive today.
As my first Hi-Fi headphones, I have no DAC or AMP, always connected everything to my desktop PC. When started looking for headphones I was thinking to spend more like €200 seeing lots of good stuff on Drop.com. Unfortunately, as someone of you may have noted, I wrote the price in Euro (€) and in Europe Drop lose all of its convenience when you have to add to the price a whapping 25%-ish of import taxes and 30$ of shipping. I then started looking around here and decided to stretch (a lot) my initial budget and buy the Sundara. All of this just to say, I'm kind of "without money", at least for this month.

Starting now with the core of this post, DACs&AMPs.
I saw a couple of well reviewed here of DAC&AMP Combo like the Loxjie D30 but at the moment can't really find it here, but it should cost around €170+shipping (eventually). Also looked at Khadas Tone2 Pro but no luck either in my region, even if I prefer a "desktop solution", don't need portable stuff.
I considered the Topping DX3 Pro that really appeal to me as a single unit but given the price of €220 a stack like a D10s+L30 may be better at just €20-ish more, but let me know if I'm wrong and should consider more this.
If you have other options, preferably reviewed here, will happily take those into consideration!

If considering a stack, I really can't afford it now (nor the DX3) so I will need to buy the AMP first than add a DAC later. Will I lose that much connecting it directly to my PC (given that I have no reference being my first Headphones with AMP)? For what it is worth, it is a custom build one by me and generally I eared it has better audio than commercial laptop, that being sad, I'm sure can't be that good either.

As AMP goes, I will surely take the Topping L30, it seems stellar for its price! But as always, I am open to suggestion.

Regarding DACs I'm more uncertain. What I'm considering are: Topping D10s and E30, otherwise the SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II. If you want to add a couple more I will look those but don't wont to spend more than €150. Now I'll explain what are my thoughts on those.
Topping D10s (€100): I think really great as price wise but some people say the only USB Input can be a limit both in term of connectivity and "clean power". Also can't use it for mobile devices (generally speaking) for power issues.
SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II (€110): This improve on the D10s in both connectivity and the fact that can be separately powered. Measurements to me seems really similar, don't know if I will discern any difference. I do not like the mini-USB, Blue-led display, form factor, the COAX Jitter and the Multi-Tone test, just minor gripes, if it is "the one" you recommend I can ignore those.
Topping E30 (€140): This is definitely the more expensive (40% more) of the group I've selected and also almost my upper limit I imposed to myself. Other than the price, I think it is the one I would like to get. Separate power and data, USB-B input, less jitter and better multi-tone than SMSL. Also, as a bonus, like the idea of E30/L30 stack but purely aesthetics and conceptually speaking. It just bothers me a bit that I have to buy a power adapter (if I don't want to power it through my multi USB Hub) and those are even more money if I consider something like iFi Power (€60, not a cheap upgrade, almost half of its price).
Just for fun, how those compared to something much more expensive like Topping D50s? Is the 2-3 times the money worth it? Because to me seems that other than features, measurements wise, isn't that different if not at all.

So...what do you think? What should I buy and what can match better my Sundara?
Note that, as I sad, I'm in Europe and here Schiit products are impossible to find or extremely overpriced (like double the price) so don't even try recommending those (unfortunately).
Thanks in advance for taking your time in reading and try to help me.

I'm in the opposite situation as you, I think I want to get a pair of Sundara. I have a few DACs and Amps and have settled on a DAC from Geshelli Labs (https://geshelli.com/jnog) JNOG. For amps I have an Xduoo MT-602 hybrid tube, a Bravo tube and ordered the Geshelli Erish Balanced amp. I've been using a Sennheiser 58x from Drop and I'm ready to step up to something with a touch more bass even though I've been told if I paired this with certain amps like an Ifi and swap the pads I might get what I am looking for. You can't go wrong with SML or THX either.

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

I'm in the opposite situation as you, I think I want to get a pair of Sundara. I have a few DACs and Amps and have settled on a DAC from Geshelli Labs (https://geshelli.com/jnog) JNOG. For amps I have an Xduoo MT-602 hybrid tube, a Bravo tube and ordered the Geshelli Erish Balanced amp. I've been using a Sennheiser 58x from Drop and I'm ready to step up to something with a touch more bass even though I've been told if I paired this with certain amps like an Ifi and swap the pads I might get what I am looking for. You can't go wrong with SML or THX either.

I have the Sundara for just a week and have not good AMP to pair with, so I won't judge them as I can't properly listen to them. What I can say is that IMO the build quality seems really good, really good looking (even if it is subjective) and really comfortable! Some say the stock pads are not good, for the time being I'm fine with those. Also, lots of complaint on the stock cable, maybe I have low standard, but can't find noting wrong with it. Yes, it is rubber and not mesh, but almost every stock cable is like that, so can't blame then.

As for your suggestion, unfortunately I'm not in US but Europe and this made every purchase not worth it because I generally need to pay something like 30$ for shipping + 22% of tax + imports fees around 10-30€. So no, I can't consider Geshelli or stuff like Schiit.

 

[zyghom]

I have the Sundara for just a week and have not good AMP to pair with, so I won't judge them as I can't properly listen to them. What I can say is that IMO the build quality seems really good, really good looking (even if it is subjective) and really comfortable! Some say the stock pads are not good, for the time being I'm fine with those. Also, lots of complaint on the stock cable, maybe I have low standard, but can't find noting wrong with it. Yes, it is rubber and not mesh, but almost every stock cable is like that, so can't blame then.

As for your suggestion, unfortunately I'm not in US but Europe and this made every purchase not worth it because I generally need to pay something like 30$ for shipping + 22% of tax + imports fees around 10-30€. So no, I can't consider Geshelli or stuff like Schiit.

perfect XLR cables you can find on ebay.co.uk - I paid for mine around 50GBP - there is a guy who makes them locally in UK

 

[Rayman30]

Id opt for a E30/L30 stack if you can.

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

Id opt for a E30/L30 stack if you can.

Yeah I was thinking about it. Need to save up a bit of money though.