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Hifiman HE6se Review (Headphone)
- Thread starter amirm
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I liked them very much as well other than the occasional crunching sound it makes at the terminal.
I don't really believe it either, and in fact the Harman Research from Olive & Toole showed that there was no correlation between headphone price and user preference. I think really headphone quality comes down to a number of factors: frequency response, distortion, soundstage, channel matching. Frequency Response generally being the most influential as long as the other variables aren't completely messed up.....and indeed a lot of the boutique headphones have crazy messed up frequency responses with many jagged peaks & dips and often no particular rhyme or reason to the general shape of the frequency response. Distortion is an easy one to characterise, you measure it, but then the debate comes down to what levels of distortion are audible and also what SPL level should you measure distortion at.....for instance I know I don't listen loud (I calculated it) so I know Amir's 94dB distortion measurement is the only one that has relevance for me, and only then in the bass. Soundstage is very hard to characterise & no one really knows but it seems to be down to angled pads/drivers and large ear cups along with the frequency response heavily affecting this characteristic too. Channel Matching is easy to measure, and I've recently done a channel matching EQ for my K702 headphone, as Oratory measured my actual unit so I was able to channel match the channels exactly/perfectly (in frequency response from 20-10000Hz).....I think this has enhanced vocal clarity and beauty, found myself being able to understand words in previously difficult to understand vocals, as well as seeming to open up a bit more detail in subtle reverb on some voices or instruments in the recording, and also seemed to allow me to notice subtle or quick panning effects that I'd not noticed before - I have the impression that channel matching is a variable that can suffer in cheaper headphones as the manufacturer has not been able to include the time & expense to allow for proper selection of matching drivers. In conclusion I think I'd say there's not really a link between price & quality, with the exception of channel matching and possibly lower distortion in more expensive headphones, but re distortion & price less of a correlation as there are some expensive headphones with horrendous distortion.
For instance after EQ, I'm not particularly convinced there'd be a noticeable difference between this headphone reviewed and it's cheaper planar headphone the HE4XX that I have (HE4XX based on the HE400i):
HE6se:
HE400i:
EQ can sort out the frequency response differences, and even though distortion is higher in the HE400i, for me the only relevant measured level is 94dB - the blue line, and even 94db is too loud for me when it comes to mid & treble, but the bass level distortion shown on the 94dB is certainly relevant to how I use my headphones, which is comfortably low on the HE400i. So yes, I don't believe in the ultra expensive headphone hype train, there's definitely a balance to be had. I'd try to buy a headphone that doesn't have glaring frequency response issues, reasonable distortion results, angled drivers/pads and good channel matching - this doesn't have to be an expensive headphone (and of course EQ the frequency response if it's been measured, I wouldn't buy a headphone that hasn't been measured).
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Link please.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
HE400i = 107dB/V
For 30Hz incl. Harman bass efficiency drops to 100dB/V (assuming your target is Harman)
We want bass so let's go with that.
You want to reach 120dB SPL (100Phon) in the bass so that's 10V.
10V in 40 ohm = 2.5W
The mids and treble, at this level, could reach 120Phon which would be unpleasant.
Then you can play impressively loud with bass beyond sensible levels.
1.6W will be 2dB less loudness.
When you don't want Harman type of bass required power levels will be well below 1W.
Of course for HE6SE things differ if you want to reach 100 Phon with Harman bass.
91dB/V will require 29V in 60ohm = 14W = 105W in 8ohm (210W in 4ohm) amp directly on the speaker terminals.
Remember... these are insane levels and you can only do this for less than the duration of a song.
For 30Hz incl. Harman bass efficiency drops to 100dB/V (assuming your target is Harman)
We want bass so let's go with that.
You want to reach 120dB SPL (100Phon) in the bass so that's 10V.
10V in 40 ohm = 2.5W
The mids and treble, at this level, could reach 120Phon which would be unpleasant.
Then you can play impressively loud with bass beyond sensible levels.
1.6W will be 2dB less loudness.
When you don't want Harman type of bass required power levels will be well below 1W.
Of course for HE6SE things differ if you want to reach 100 Phon with Harman bass.
91dB/V will require 29V in 60ohm = 14W = 105W in 8ohm (210W in 4ohm) amp directly on the speaker terminals.
Remember... these are insane levels and you can only do this for less than the duration of a song.
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Isn't the HE6SE a 50 Ohm device?
solderdude
Grand Contributor
64 ohm measured by Amir.
Spec = 50 ohm.
the example was for HE400i based on manuf. specs.
You can't trust hifiman specs.
I had 2 HE560's one with 34 ohm and another with 56ohm
That checks out. That'll require more power. Also, pretty sure the db/V is different between the HE400 and HE6SE. I stand by my original statement that the dude (that I originally replied to) needs more power to drive these cans.
Hi man, not sure if your message was intended for my message above, but my G6 DAC only puts out 2V (nowhere near the 10V you mentioned), and I only listen at 86dB for an equivalent max Vrms on that headphone (0.08V), which will be in the bass and at perfect Harman levels down to 20Hz.
(above screenshot from my experiment & calculations to work out the max level I listen out fleshed out in detail here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measured-by-oratory.22992/page-2#post-767745) (at that link that's calculations for my K702, but I have done the same experiment & calculations for my HE4XX, the end result being the screenshot above)
I have my JDS Labs Atom Amp at 12 o'clock on Low Gain (Unity Gain) combined with -3.5dB on the Windows Volume Slider (79%) and of course negative preamp to cover the EQ (about -9dB if I recall)......so I'm really not pushing my HE4XX even with Harman Bass EQ.
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There's a lot to unpack here, but I asked for info about how much power it takes to drive a HE6se. Also, you're DAC only puts out 2V probably because it's using RCA to connect to an amp. You need more than 2V to drive cans, that's what an amp is for. Lastly, calculators like that don't account for how much power it takes to produce noticeable sound in lower frequencies. I can plug my 600 ohm cans directly into my motherboard and get them loud, but they still sound like shit (due to lots of factors including noise, distortion, but also lack of bass).
Something that I think needs emphasising about power requirements is that they are not of themselves the full story. As calculated above, you need to know two things to characterise the requirements. At the core these two are sensitivity and impedance. From there you get a voltage swing needed to reach a sensible maximum SPL, and from there you know the current required. Your amplifier needs to be able to deliver both the voltage swing and deliver the current. Power is of course V*I, so power is a surrogate for one of current or voltage if you know the other, but in the end it isn't directly power as a figure of merit that is important. You can easily find an amplifier that can deliver 2 Watts in to a lower impedance, and it won't swing the volts into what you need, and conversely it is easy to find amplifiers than can swing the volts but will run out of current delivery (for a range of reasons.) I have no idea if some people have run into trouble missing this point with these sorts of headphones, but it would not surprise me.
I don't need more than 2V to drive any of my headphones, in fact I only need a max of 0.08V (which is nowhere near 2V) to drive my headphones to the max levels I listen at (which will be in bass due to the Harman EQ I use):
HP50:
K702:
HE4XX:
And then in terms of if I had my DAC at 2V max output combined with Low Gain at max volume on my JDS Labs Atom Amp:
HP50:
K702:
HE4XX:
As you can see there's plenty of headroom using a 2V DAC, and I only use 0.08V as a max Vrms!
Nice troll. Not at all useful, but I'm sure you win points from the internet.
My ears and head hurts beyond level shown in screenshot. Solderdude has given you math. Go figure.
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What are you talking about? I'm showing you I don't need any more than 0.08V for my headphones (whereas you said you need more than 2V to drive headphones), which I calculated based on listening tests at my subjective max volume I listen at, based on using negative preamps in EqualiserAPO to dial down to an acceptable max listening level whilst my DAC is outputting 2V & JDS Labs headphone amp is at unity gain max volume....thereby by dialing down volume using dB negative preamp I can work out what my max Vrms & max dB SPL will be at my max subjective listening levels. The detailed methodology is explained at the following link, as I admit I've not explained it particularly well today:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measured-by-oratory.22992/page-2#post-767745
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Cool. Sell your amp and connect all of your cans directly to your DAC; you've found the secret to winning the SINAD war. This is a thread about the HE6se, so this is a troll (look back at the thread for context if you're confused, but I'm done here).
I was replying to solderdude initially as I thought his post was aimed at my post where I was comparing HE400i with the HE6se (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iman-he6se-review-headphone.23576/post-790244), then you replied to one of my subsequent posts, and this is how the conversation developed when I picked up on the point you made that you think you need more than 2V to drive headphones, which you don't in pretty much all cases.....which is what my last posts have been showing you re my particular headphones. Of course some headphones are harder to drive than others, but it depends on your listening level and the headphone, certainly for my headphones, of which K702 is not a sensitive headphone I need only a max of 0.08 Vrms from the DAC. That's why I can keep my JDS Labs Atom amp on Low Gain (Unity Gain) and just use the volume dial on the amp to modulate the volume, I run my K702 from about 10 to 2 o'clock, but normally around 11, which is around half the travel on the volume pot. A good quality headphone amp allows you to run the DAC at max output for SINAD reasons whilst having hopefully an amp that has low distortion (and good current delivery abilities if you have headphones that require that ability, which I think is low ohm / low sensitivity headphones), so it's not really a waste having a headphone amp when you're only using Unity Gain.
I only have the original HE 6 which ought to have a similar, if not identical sensitivity. Regarding power requirements when using it portably, the only portable dac/amp I know of that gives clean and loud enough sound is the ifi iDSD Black Label. While the Focus A pads I have mounted improve the bass response, the og HE6 is still a bit lean sounding. I therefore use the PEQ of SpotEQ or the XBass option on the ifi.
As much as I would love it to work, the E1DA SG3, despite being one of the most powerful super compact dac/amp combos, has not enough juice. Without EQ it reaches mid levels but hasn't enough headroom for tracks with lower sound level. And there is no way to EQ the bass without distortion.
As much as I would love it to work, the E1DA SG3, despite being one of the most powerful super compact dac/amp combos, has not enough juice. Without EQ it reaches mid levels but hasn't enough headroom for tracks with lower sound level. And there is no way to EQ the bass without distortion.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
No to Aldarrin (1 post above mine), You have expressed the desire that I do not respond to your messages any more but because you asked directly I will reply this time.
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