Hifiman HE400SE Review (Headphone)

[Deleted member 27694]

I look at the measurements, look if they are valid and then draw my own conclusions based on what I know and the objective data I see.

I see

"When you have the Sundara's there is no need to buy the (lesser) HE400SE"

Please be so kind and elaborate why the HE400SE is in your conclusion the lesser hp? Bass, Mids, Treble? Where is it based on Amirs objective measurments in your opinion weaker than the Sundara?

Thank you!

 

[abdo123]

I see

"When you have the Sundara's there is no need to buy the (lesser) HE400SE"

Please be so kind and elaborate why the HE400SE is in your conclusion the lesser hp? Bass, Mids, Treble? Where is it based on Amirs objective measurments in your opinion weaker than the Sundara?

Thank you!

 

[RHO]

more like compare Harman bass with regular bass between the Aeon RT and Sundara. Since you're under the impression that they're somewhat the same.

For me Harman bass is 'just right' while my partner definitely appreciate regular bass so it's really personal preference imo.

How would you do that?
what if my Sundara is not the same as the one Amir measured and that this is the cause for our subjective experiences. For instance Resolve has measured one that didn't not show as much bass roll-off as the one Amir measured and his in-ear measurements show even less roll-off.

 

[abdo123]

How would you do that?
what if my Sundara is not the same as the one Amir measured and that this is the cause for our subjective experiences. For instance Resolve has measured one that didn't not show as much bass roll-off as the one Amir measured and his in-ear measurements show even less roll-off.

we would equalize both of them to harman but keep the lowshelf filter at 100Hz @ 0dB gain and we would also match the levels. all of this is possible with the Qudelix.

 

[RHO]

we would equalize both of them to harman but keep the lowshelf filter at 100Hz @ 0dB gain and we would also match the levels. all of this is possible with the Qudelix.

I could do this with Equalizer APO and the EQ profiles from Oratory1990.

 

[MayaTlab]

Yes, that is what is so strange to me. I don't think it is in reality. Or at least not all of them. There are measurements out there that show this.
Is it a seating error on the GRAS rig Amir has? doesn't it seal well on his head as well as on his rig?

I would expect the Sundara's pad / yoke design to seal better on a rig with a flat plate around the pinna than on a real human's head. The material facing the skin is leaky and won't be fully in contact with the skin on a real human (but will be with the rig's plate).
But I suspect that there may be quite a bit of leak (if not most of it) coming from the pad to earcup attachment given its design, and possibly quite a bit of sample variation coming from that area of the design (it's very poorly conceived to ensure a consistent degree of seal).

The two copies of the 2020 Sundara I had (or rather one and a half as one side didn't work out of the box on the second) and my HE400SE also drop off in the sub bass quite a bit on my head, similarly to headphones likes the HD650 for example, as can easily be attested by on-head measurements.

Below how the R and L channels of my own HE400SE (solid green traces) measure on my own head with blocked ear canal entrance microphones vs HD58X and HD650 (dotted traces), normalised across one octave centered at 500hz :

And here the first copy of the 2020 Sundara I received vs. the same HD650 with open ear canals in concha microphones (at these frequencies the results are similar to blocked ear canal entrance microphones), measured months earlier (I didn't have blocked ear canal mics at the time and I no longer have the Sundara), R and L channels :

Please don't compare both graphs between each others, but rather the HE400SE vs HD650 in the first and Sundara vs HD650 in the second in relative terms, as the mics compensation is a little bit different and I've changed measurement practices over time.

So for me both performed more or less in the vein of the HD58X/HD650.

Resolve seemed to experience a much better bass response with his Sundara on-head than I did.

 

[abdo123]

I could do this with Equalizer APO and the EQ profiles from Oratory1990.

yeah ofcourse it's a good experiment. With the Qudelix you can tell exactly how much voltage you're outputting at any point so it makes it easier to match volumes between different headphones.

 

[Deleted member 27694]

View attachment 171055

Those are Amirs measurments?

My comment was based on "Based on objective measurements from Amir of these 2 headphones." I dont doubt that there are tons of measurments for the Sundara. I dont doubt that there are people who prefer the Sundara.

I am just a astound that someone who:

a) Doesn't own the Sundaras or the HE400
b) Has heard the Sundaras a long time ago
c) Wasn't impressed by it...

...looks at the measurments - again - from Amir and conludes that the HE400 is the "lesser" hp. And that is why I asked: Where is the HE400 the "lesser" hp: Bass, Mids, Treble?

 

[RHO]

I would expect the Sundara's pad / yoke design to seal better on a rig with a flat plate around the pinna than on a real human's head. The material facing the skin is leaky and won't be fully in contact with the skin on a real human (but will be with the rig's plate).
But I suspect that there may be quite a bit of leak (if not most of it) coming from the pad to earcup attachment given its design, and possibly quite a bit of sample variation coming from that area of the design (it's very poorly conceived to ensure a consistent degree of seal).

The two copies of the 2020 Sundara I had (or rather one and a half as one side didn't work out of the box on the second) and my HE400SE also drop off in the sub bass quite a bit on my head, similarly to headphones likes the HD650 for example, as can easily be attested by on-head measurements.

Below how the R and L channels of my own HE400SE (solid green traces) measure on my own head with blocked ear canal entrance microphones vs HD58X and HD650 (dotted traces), normalised across one octave centered at 500hz :
View attachment 171054

And here the first copy of the 2020 Sundara I received vs. the same HD650 with open ear canals in concha microphones (at these frequencies the results are similar to blocked ear canal entrance microphones), measured months earlier (I didn't have blocked ear canal mics at the time and I no longer have the Sundara), R and L channels :
View attachment 171064
Please don't compare both graphs between each others, but rather the HE400SE vs HD650 in the first and Sundara vs HD650 in the second in relative terms, as the mics compensation is a little bit different and I've changed measurement practices over time.

So for me both performed more or less in the vein of the HD58X/HD650.

Resolve seemed to experience a much better bass response with his Sundara on-head than I did.

This is very interesting.
So if my Sundara is more like the ones you had it should perform similar to my HD6XX (since that should sound the same as an HD650). If it has better bass extension my Sundara is more similar to the one Resolve has/had.
Unfortunately I have no measurement rig. So I can only test it subjectively. But I can safely conclude that there are indeed Sundaras out there that have better bass extension than the one Amir measured. Right?
From all the measurements I have seen now, this does seem to be a minority. (Did I get lucky? ) Or my subjective experience is colored by expectation bias. (I do not rule this out.)

 

[_thelaughingman]

Those are Amirs measurments?

My comment was based on "Based on objective measurements from Amir of these 2 headphones." I dont doubt that there are tons of measurments for the Sundara. I dont doubt that there are people who prefer the Sundara.

I am just a astound that someone who:

a) Doesn't own the Sundaras or the HE400
b) Has heard the Sundaras a long time ago
c) Wasn't impressed by it...

...looks at the measurments - again - from Amir and conludes that the HE400 is the "lesser" hp. And that is why I asked: Where is the HE400 the "lesser" hp: Bass, Mids, Treble?

I think @solderdude is entitled to his opinion on his claim that the HE400se is lesser than the Sundara based on measurements due to his knowledge in having performed numerous measurements himself of various headphones.
Once you understand how measurements work and how to read the harman curve, you can make a similar claim. The other thing to see is the conformity of the measurements to the Harman curve, if you compare the Sundara and He400 as shown in the image by @abdo123 you can see that the Sundara' conform better to the curve thus equating to being better than the HE400se. Subjectivity is not basis of them being inferior to Sundara' this is purely based on measurements.

 

[RHO]

Those are Amirs measurments?

My comment was based on "Based on objective measurements from Amir of these 2 headphones." I dont doubt that there are tons of measurments for the Sundara. I dont doubt that there are people who prefer the Sundara.

I am just a astound that someone who:

a) Doesn't own the Sundaras or the HE400
b) Has heard the Sundaras a long time ago
c) Wasn't impressed by it...

...looks at the measurments - again - from Amir and conludes that the HE400 is the "lesser" hp. And that is why I asked: Where is the HE400 the "lesser" hp: Bass, Mids, Treble?

Well, he responded to my interest in the hp. And I did come to the same conclusion as he did, looking at Amirs measurements.
Yes, I do own the Sundara and I do think it has better bass extension than is shown in his measurements and I do take that into account while comparing the 2. But I also think the Sundara matches the target better between 150Hz to 6kHz than the HD400se.
So I'm not THAT surprised Solderdude came to that conclusion too.
What I am surprised about is that he was not impressed by the Sundara when he heard it.

edit: I am just as surprised that Amir seems to like the HD400se more than the Sundara.

 

[solderdude]

I am just as surprised that Amir seems to like the HD400se more than the Sundara.

I heard it at the same time as the Susvara and some other TOTL headphones. Also this was an early one which may sound different from the current ones. Hard to be impressed at that time:

My assessment:
The Sundara sounds slightly ‘lean’ in the bass area. The bass does sound good, well extended and ‘tight’.
The upper mids have a slight coarseness to it. There is a somewhat ‘artificial’ emphasis/sibilance heard with some recordings. Some ‘sharpish edge’ on on voices and instruments.

Sundara is twice the price of the HE400SE. The HE400SE is higher VFM but when one already owns the Sundara I see no need to buy the cheaper HE400SE.

I did buy the HE400SE and have plenty of (much better) headphones so one can buy whatever they want.
On the question buy the HE400SE when you have a Sundara I stand by my standpoint. I see no point in owning both unless you really want to own them both and other Hifiman too.

 

[_thelaughingman]

Well, he responded to my interest in the hp. And I did come to the same conclusion as he did, looking at Amirs measurements.
Yes, I do own the Sundara and I do think it has better bass extension than is shown in his measurements and I do take that into account while comparing the 2. But I also think the Sundara matches the target better between 150Hz to 6kHz than the HD400se.
So I'm not THAT surprised Solderdude came to that conclusion too.
What I am surprised about is that he was not impressed by the Sundara when he heard it.

edit: I am just as surprised that Amir seems to like the HD400se more than the Sundara.

This is my theory, assuming that the stealth magnets drivers have been refined in such a way that they may have improved the HE400se compared to the non Stealth magnet design of the drivers in Sundara.

 

[RHO]

I heard it at the same time as the Susvara and some other TOTL headphones. Also this was an early one which may sound different from the current ones. Hard to be impressed at that time:

My assessment:
The Sundara sounds slightly ‘lean’ in the bass area. The bass does sound good, well extended and ‘tight’.
The upper mids have a slight coarseness to it. There is a somewhat ‘artificial’ emphasis/sibilance heard with some recordings. Some ‘sharpish edge’ on on voices and instruments.

Sundara is twice the price of the HE400SE. The HE400SE is higher VFM but when one already owns the Sundara I see no need to buy the cheaper HE400SE.

I did buy the HE400SE and have plenty of (much better) headphones so one can buy whatever they want.
On the question buy the HE400SE when you have a Sundara I stand by my standpoint. I see no point in owning both unless you really want to own them both and other Hifiman too.

So you did like the Susvara and hence were underwhelmed by the Sundara because you heard them at the same time?
OK, I can see how that can happen.
Yes, more recent iterations of the Sundara seem to sound a bit better than the older ones.

If I would buy an HE400se it would be just to have one and compare it to the Sundara (and HD6XX). No other reason. So I refrain from buying one. There are many other things I want and have better use for than yet an other headphone.

 

[abdo123]

Those are Amirs measurments?

My comment was based on "Based on objective measurements from Amir of these 2 headphones." I dont doubt that there are tons of measurments for the Sundara. I dont doubt that there are people who prefer the Sundara.

I am just a astound that someone who:

a) Doesn't own the Sundaras or the HE400
b) Has heard the Sundaras a long time ago
c) Wasn't impressed by it...

...looks at the measurments - again - from Amir and conludes that the HE400 is the "lesser" hp. And that is why I asked: Where is the HE400 the "lesser" hp: Bass, Mids, Treble?

the measurements are nearly identical to Amir's as they were done on the same machine and fixture.

 

[GaryH]

(Did I get lucky? ) Or my subjective experience is colored by expectation bias. (I do not rule this out.)

Either are possible. Or they just happen to seal very well on your (and Resolve's) particular head(s). The latter has a big head (self-admitted, and physically, not metaphorically ) which may have something to do with it, and reduces the applicability of his in-ear mic measurements to the average listener. There is some unit variation in the bass of the Sundara, but their sub-bass extension is poor:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364127667402940417

Combine this poor extension with their relatively high sub-bass distortion at high levels for a planar and you could possibly have issues when EQing them up to the Harman target, which is I suspect why Oratory doesn't fully do this with his EQ for the Sundara (and he listens to the headphones to check for such issues and fine-tunes the EQ accordingly). The HE400SE (and other HE4** series models) don't have this issue.

 

[RHO]

Either are possible. Or they just happen to seal very well on your (and Resolve's) particular head(s). The latter has a big head (self-admitted, and physically, not metaphorically ) which may have something to do with it, and reduces the applicability of his in-ear mic measurements to the average listener. There is some unit variation in the bass of the Sundara, but their sub-bass extension is poor:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364127667402940417

Combine this poor extension with their relatively high sub-bass distortion at high levels for a planar and you could possibly have issues when EQing them up to the Harman target, which is I suspect why Oratory doesn't fully do this with his EQ for the Sundara (and he listens to the headphones to check for such issues and fine-tunes the EQ accordingly). The HE400SE (and other HE4** series models) don't have this issue.

Maybe I'm just deaf below 40Hz.
I'll have to do a better comparison between my Sundara and Aeon RT closed. Maybe I'm really too biased or my hearing is really bad below 40Hz. ...Or my Sundara is really good.

 

[GaryH]

Maybe I'm just deaf below 40Hz.
I'll have to do a better comparison between my Sundara and Aeon RT closed. Maybe I'm really too biased or my hearing is really bad below 40Hz. ...Or my Sundara is really good.

Make sure you're listening to music that actually has a decent amount of sub-bass energy to it.

 

[RHO]

Make sure you're listening to music that actually has a decent amount of sub-bass energy to it.

Or sine sweeps? (at a reasonable level) Maybe pink noise and EQ in some sub-bass?
I'll check the BASS topic for suggestions.

 

[abdo123]

Combine this poor extension with their relatively high sub-bass distortion at high levels for a planar and you could possibly have issues when EQing them up to the Harman target,

It's not high at all, audibility of distortion in that area is in the 20% so that's not relevant at all. Even the Sennheiser HD650 has way higher distortion and a way worse roll-off and no one has a problem boosting them in the bass area.

which is I suspect why Oratory doesn't fully do this with his EQ for the Sundara (and he listens to the headphones to check for such issues and fine-tunes the EQ accordingly). The HE400SE (and other HE4** series models) don't have this issue.

He doesn't EQ the subbass between 20Hz and 40Hz to flat because he thinks the gain loss would be much more severe than the added benefit. For example with the HD650 he needs to add 15dB boost at 20Hz, that means taking 15dB of dynamic range out. For the average person the moment they hear that the headphones are way quieter they would immediately think that the EQ is bad, it's psycho-accoustics. However he started EQing the sub-bass to flat first and then uses a Harman lowshelf at 100Hz, maybe he had a change of heart.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/nu77qp