Hifiman HE400SE Review (Headphone)

[roladyzator]

Got a pair of these a few days ago, the non-Stealth ones, 25 ohm, from AliExpress for just under £60 inc. taxes. The Stealth Magnet ones would have been £100 or so, but of course since getting the non-Stealth ones I'm wondering whether I should have gone for Stealth!

Anyway, I'm delighted with them and think they sound fantastic. Effectively they are to replace a pair of AKG K702s I have, which, while being undoubtedly impressive in many ways, I have found myself not enjoying listening to as much as I might, for reasons I've never been able to put my finger on. I've played around with equalization on them, but somehow the sound always proves maybe a little fatiguing. To me the Hifimans sound more 'musical' (yes, I know that's a rather meaningless term in this context). 80%-90% of the music I listen to is classical, which has its own special requirements.

I'm listening to them via a Fiio KA11 dongle with my Android phone (listening mainly to Spotify Premium). I very rarely go above 65-70% on the Android volume control, even when using Oratory's EQ (with PowerAmp Equalizer), so I'm wondering whether I do in fact need any more amplifier power than the KA11 provides, although everybody talks about these headphones needing serious amplification. The specs are: 245mW@16Ω. 200mW@32Ω.

What do people think? Will I get a benefit from more amplification? In which case is there a dongle or other easily portable option I can go for which has similarly excellent price/performance ratio?

I've replaced my K702 with these too (the Stealth Magnets version).

I don't think you need more power.

 

[Johnny2R]

@roladyzator , how would you define the main differences between the two? I'm genuinely puzzled about what doesn't quite work for me with the K702, because the airiness and the detail they give really works superbly for representation of, say, an orchestra in a concert hall.

 

[Heinrich]

@roladyzator , how would you define the main differences between the two? I'm genuinely puzzled about what doesn't quite work for me with the K702, because the airiness and the detail they give really works superbly for representation of, say, an orchestrator in a concert hall.

Not ro, but I own both too. Without equalizer both show very significant aberrations from the truth, compared to a Sennheiser HD58X equalized. But in different directions. HE400 is after a shimmering yet bassy sound, while the K702 seems to long for some hard edge. The latter is not a mixing monitor, but it will reveal microphone overdrive on vocals in the studio in an instance to give just one example. The former is also not the least neutral, everything gets its hifi- sauce, which will become boring very quickly. I like the bass and not, soft well rounded off transparent, but often also fleeting without the bite, subjectively after equalization. The K702 is very comfortable, very much so. Equalized it is well usable.

 

[Robbo99999]

Got a pair of these a few days ago, the non-Stealth ones, 25 ohm, from AliExpress for just under £60 inc. taxes. The Stealth Magnet ones would have been £100 or so, but of course since getting the non-Stealth ones I'm wondering whether I should have gone for Stealth!

Anyway, I'm delighted with them and think they sound fantastic. Effectively they are to replace a pair of AKG K702s I have, which, while being undoubtedly impressive in many ways, I have found myself not enjoying listening to as much as I might, for reasons I've never been able to put my finger on. I've played around with equalization on them, but somehow the sound always proves maybe a little fatiguing. To me the Hifimans sound more 'musical' (yes, I know that's a rather meaningless term in this context). 80%-90% of the music I listen to is classical, which has its own special requirements.

I'm listening to them via a Fiio KA11 dongle with my Android phone (listening mainly to Spotify Premium). I very rarely go above 65-70% on the Android volume control, even when using Oratory's EQ (with PowerAmp Equalizer), so I'm wondering whether I do in fact need any more amplifier power than the KA11 provides, although everybody talks about these headphones needing serious amplification. The specs are: 245mW@16Ω. 200mW@32Ω.

What do people think? Will I get a benefit from more amplification? In which case is there a dongle or other easily portable option I can go for which has similarly excellent price/performance ratio?

@roladyzator , how would you define the main differences between the two? I'm genuinely puzzled about what doesn't quite work for me with the K702, because the airiness and the detail they give really works superbly for representation of, say, an orchestra in a concert hall.

I've got the K702 & also the HE400SE (stealth magnet version although Oratory says no major difference stealth magnet or not). It's obvious that they're gonna sound completely different at stock because the frequency responses are just so different. As an understander of the Harman Research into headphones and with my own experience I know I like the Headphone Harman Curve then Harman Curve EQ's have always brought out the best in the headphones that I've owned, and I've always used Oratory EQ's or variations on that theme. To me the most interesting part is that out of all the headphones I own is that the Oratory EQ's for the round cup Hifiman headphones have always sounded the most balanced and natural/right. I've got some Anechoic Flat speakers & have experimented with Harman EQ's on various headphones so I think I have a good understanding of what neutral is supposed to sound like "on average". For me it's striking how good the Oratory EQ's seem to be for the round cup Hifiman headphones in particular: so this goes for my HE4XX and HE400SE - nothing really needs to be changed from a tonality perspective for those, whereas with my other headphones that is not the case. If I was you I'd use the Oratory EQ for your HE400SE and I'd expect that to be what should be as close to neutral as I'd expect from a headphone EQ. I don't know what it is about round cup Hifiman headphones & Oratory EQ's but I've either been exceptionally lucky for unit to unit variation for those 2 models or there's just something that works with regard to that headphone design with regards to how it to translates to Harman Curve measurements on GRAS, or both (maybe those round cup Hifiman's are low unit to unit variation).

For the K702 though, it's got great potential, especially in soundstage & detail reproduction when you can get the EQ right, but the unit to unit variation is a bit high - I've got like 4 units of those & the pads have changed through the years a little & they're just not all the same, but the general design is just really good, but the consistency has not been there. I sent a unit or two off to Oratory for measurement so I've been lucky enough to get rid of unit to unit variation when it comes to this headphone and it's right up there with the best & I think unique for soundstage & detail. Unfortunately it's just unreliable for unit to unit variation & also the solder fails - which again is not a major issue for me because I've resoldered the wires, but still - lot's of potential but poor execution that can't be got around by the average consumer. As a normal consumer you'd buy the HE400SE & use an Oratory EQ every day of week including Sundays!

 

[Heinrich]

As a normal consumer you'd buy the HE400SE & use an Oratory EQ every day of week including Sundays!

Alas, hifiman is known to have issues with consistent production. The HE400SE seems to struggle with a resonance at about 8kHz, 8 to 10dB high, Q is 6…7…8 or so. Not all, but only 50% of individual cups are affected. Reviewed samples don’t show that for whatever reasons, cherry picked? In case You may want to address the issue, cross check with white noise.

 

[InfiniteJester]

K702 is very comfortable, very much so.

For me, the K702 are the most uncomfortable headphones I have ever owned. I like the sound they have, but I can never use them, because I can't tolerate them.

HD599 are probably the most comfortable ones I have tried.

HE400SE are way more comfortable than the K702 for me.

 

[Johnny2R]

Funny, I have absolutely no comfort issues with the K702, except when wearing glasses. The HE400SE cause a bit of a pain on the crown of my head after an hour or so, but I'm assured this goes away with time, and can be alleviated by kneading the padding there or potentially putting something like a cable tie round there, something I've not got round to trying yet.

 

[roladyzator]

I've seen this https://capraaudio.com/product/hifiman-comfort-strap/ mentioned as working great for people affected by the headband.
I'm not sure if they ship worldwide, though.

 

[Robbo99999]

Alas, hifiman is known to have issues with consistent production. The HE400SE seems to struggle with a resonance at about 8kHz, 8 to 10dB high, Q is 6…7…8 or so. Not all, but only 50% of individual cups are affected. Reviewed samples don’t show that for whatever reasons, cherry picked? In case You may want to address the issue, cross check with white noise.

Can't say I've noticed an issue with mine, but I do have my own EQ I did using Oratory's measurement and 8kHz is EQ'd down by about 3dB if you look at the blue line in the following graph which is the Total EQ Curve I use, so there is a peak there that's reflected in Oratory's measurement albeit not as large as you mention:

For those that are curious the Magenta coloured line is the Total EQ Curve for Oratory's EQ, and as I said the blue line is the Total EQ Curve for my EQ that I did using Oratory's measurement.

EDIT: on my miniDSP EARS both my earcups measure identically at 8kHz, so for my unit it's not suffering from the 50% thing you mentioned unless my unit is lucky that neither cup has a major resonance there or indeed maybe both cups do have the resonance and I've been unlucky but I've not noticed any issue. To be fair, I'm not even certain that 8kHz resonance is a thing with HE400SE, I mean you mentioned it but I'm not sure about it.

 

[roladyzator]

@roladyzator , how would you define the main differences between the two? I'm genuinely puzzled about what doesn't quite work for me with the K702, because the airiness and the detail they give really works superbly for representation of, say, an orchestra in a concert hall.

I already have a "soundstage" headphone, the Sennheiser HD700, after Oratory1990 EQ with slight adjustments. Sounds reasonably "end-game" to me.

Compared to the HD700 and K371, the EQed K702 or HE400SE are quite close.
For a moment, I though the HE400SE had a bit deeper bass and more even upper treble, but I might have been as well buying into the "planar magic" expectation bias.
In the end, while I was very happy with bass performance of K702 (it's very clean even with a strong EQ), just couldn't get the treble right with them.
I liked the airiness, but there was something there that didn't sound right to me.

It was just easier to get satisfying sound with the HE400SE and I didn't notice any issues in the bass, mids or soundstage department. In the end, there were no reason to keep both so I've decided to let someone else enjoy the K702. My young cousin was just getting into headphone audio and I gave those to him. After a week or so he told me he liked them and even insisted on paying me back part of the price (around $40) for his good conscience.

Then, I've added a bit of money and got myself a Fosi DS2 to have a piece of mind about my source.

 

[Johnny2R]

@roladyzator , I'll probably sell the K702s and keep the HE400SE. I will, though, have a couple more attempts at EQ for the K702 to see if I can correct what it is I'm not happy about (which I need to determine first!)

 

[Heinrich]

To be fair, I'm not even certain that 8kHz resonance is a thing with HE400SE, I mean you mentioned it but I'm not sure about it.

It is a thing. I‘ve got three for selection and all three pairs were vastly (8dB and so) different to each other and left versus right likewise. That‘s why I wonder how many just like them. What else to say?

 

[Robbo99999]

@roladyzator , I'll probably sell the K702s and keep the HE400SE. I will, though, have a couple more attempts at EQ for the K702 to see if I can correct what it is I'm not happy about (which I need to determine first!)

If you like try the K702 EQ to Harman Curve that I created from measuring my 4 units on miniDSP EARS - it was converted to a GRAS measurement as Oratory measured one of my units so I was able to create a conversion curve for miniDSP EARS to GRAS for K702. It's at following thread, might be worth trying before you decide to sell your K702:

AKG K702: a valid alternative EQ to Harman Curve for you to try

I'd like to offer you all an alternative EQ to the Oratory EQ, it's still done to the Harman Curve but it's using a different set of measurements. Oratory's measurement for the K702 has changed by a large amount over the various versions of pdf's he's released for it, and for my 4 units of K702...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Johnny2R]

@Robbo99999 , thanks, I already came across that, in fact. I tried importing it into Poweramp Equalizer, but for some reason I can't work out it choked on the import, although the format looks just fine to me:

Preamp: -6 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain 5.7 dB Q 0.5
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 148 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 1.0
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 245 Hz Gain -3.1 dB Q 1.0
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 956 Hz Gain -6.1 dB Q 1.0
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 1488 Hz Gain -3.2 dB Q 3.229
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1662 Hz Gain 7.7 dB Q 1.0
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 3001 Hz Gain -3.4 dB Q 2.263
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 5076 Hz Gain -2.4 dB Q 3.539
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 7997 Hz Gain -3.8 dB Q 4.885

I'll resort to entering it manually if I can't get this to work. I was alternating between PowerAmp Equalizer and Wavelet on my previous phone but on my new phone Wavelet cannot see a Spotify session running, I have no idea why. Otherwise I'd try this with Wavelet.

[LATER: Sorry! Just realised that this is the EQ for the HE400SE you suggested, not the K702. Your K702 one imported fine. I'll give it a listen later. Who knows, I may even end up keeping the K702s and selling the HE400SE, although financially it makes more sense the other way round, as I could probably sell the K702s for more than I paid new for the HE400SE]

 

[Robbo99999]

@Robbo99999 , thanks, I already came across that, in fact. I tried importing it into Poweramp Equalizer, but for some reason I can't work out it choked on the import, although the format looks just fine to me:

Preamp: -6 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 20 Hz Gain 5.7 dB Q 0.5
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 148 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 1.0
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 245 Hz Gain -3.1 dB Q 1.0
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 956 Hz Gain -6.1 dB Q 1.0
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 1488 Hz Gain -3.2 dB Q 3.229
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1662 Hz Gain 7.7 dB Q 1.0
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 3001 Hz Gain -3.4 dB Q 2.263
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 5076 Hz Gain -2.4 dB Q 3.539
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 7997 Hz Gain -3.8 dB Q 4.885

I'll resort to entering it manually if I can't get this to work. I was alternating between PowerAmp Equalizer and Wavelet on my previous phone but on my new phone Wavelet cannot see a Spotify session running, I have no idea why. Otherwise I'd try this with Wavelet.

[LATER: Sorry! Just realised that this is the EQ for the HE400SE you suggested, not the K702. Your K702 one imported fine. I'll give it a listen later. Who knows, I may even end up keeping the K702s and selling the HE400SE, although financially it makes more sense the other way round, as I could probably sell the K702s for more than I paid new for the HE400SE]

Yes, the K702 EQ is at the link I gave you, which you realised in your edit, following is the K702 EQ link again, just to avoid confusion with readers:

AKG K702: a valid alternative EQ to Harman Curve for you to try

I'd like to offer you all an alternative EQ to the Oratory EQ, it's still done to the Harman Curve but it's using a different set of measurements. Oratory's measurement for the K702 has changed by a large amount over the various versions of pdf's he's released for it, and for my 4 units of K702...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Leave some feedback at the link above if you want to & of course you can drop a quick note in here too to round off the conversation if you want.

 

[maximit]

i recently designed one of my suspension headband for HiFiMans as well and I ship worldwide. I also have black carbon fiber hex grills and colorful ones to customize them to your taste.

maximit.etsy.com

 

[Robbo99999]

i recently designed one of my suspension headband for HiFiMans as well and I ship worldwide. I also have black carbon fiber hex grills and colorful ones to customize them to your taste.

maximit.etsy.com

View attachment 426167


View attachment 426168

Have you measured to see if if the grills affect the frequency response?

 

[maximit]

Have you measured to see if if the grills affect the frequency response?

I have not as I dont have anything to measure them on. I assume any effect is minimal, its mainly a cosmetic item.

 

[Robbo99999]

I have not, I assume any effect is minimal. Its mainly a cosmetic item.

I'm not sure, sometimes these grills can effect the frequency response if I remember rightly. @solderdude, I'm thinking you might have done some testing in the past of effect of removing grills from headphones, did you notice any patterns?

 

[solderdude]

I haven't with the HE400SE... I still have a 400i so could experiment. I can imagine the grilles possibly making a slight difference as the holes are relatively small so will apply some damping.
Less damping usually isn't beneficial for resonances and hifiman are notoriously poorly damped (they 'ring' like no other on CSD's and have narrow HF peaks)

I will experiment with 400i with and without grilles (easy to remove) and post it in an hour or so.