Hifiman HE400SE Review (Headphone)

[mr.at]

These look interesting. Thanks for the review. I currently have the 4xx and they seem to track fairly close to this one on the FR posted.

I was looking at an upgrade to the Sundara, but the XS has me looking closer at that.

Yeah I'd vouch for the XS. [Edition X Jr with stealth mags is the WTG]

 

[GaryH]

I highly doubt the distortion in Sundara is an audible concern, considering it's almost entirely second order

DT990 Distortion is much worse, yet it has better extension than the Sundara in Oratory's Harman preset: https://www.dropbox.com/s/afcv3lfncnl9mwk/Beyerdynamic DT990 (worn earpads).pdf?dl=0

See my follow-up post (replace 'HD650' with 'DT990'). To be clear, I'm talking about post-Harman EQ, so for the Sundara that means a ~11 dB boost in the sub-bass, accompanied by a resultant increase in distortion, which could cross into audibility, during peaks, at loud listening levels. (Note the DT990 only requires a ~5 dB boost, so there won't be as big of a delta in distortion pre- to post-EQ.)

 

[GaryH]

Yes, more recent iterations of the Sundara seem to sound a bit better than the older ones.

They're more than just a bit different - the change of pads has resulted in them effectively becoming distinct models, with very different frequency response:

So any impressions of one version cannot be carried over to the other. Also, be very wary of anyone citing higher price as a valid indicator of better audio quality, when we've seen time and again this is not necessarily the case. The illusory meme of stratifying headphones into 'entry level', 'mid-fi', 'TOTL' etc. has been invented by dealers in order to drive 'upgradits', sales and prices to ridiculous kilobuck levels that no-one would have accepted 10 years ago. Many reviewers are part of the problem, either intentionally perpetuating this myth due to sponsorship ties, or often just unwittingly falling into the common trap of being biased by price.

 

[NYfan2]

I couldn't resist the GAS and ordered one, so tomorrow I'll know if this headphone is as good as my Sennheiser HD600 (or even better).

 

[solderdude]

Do any of you have similar conclusions?

I had very different preferences. I have to say I listened to a filtered HD58X.

First: I have no idea how this was recorded and what correction was used. SQ was not great to begin with.
Listened without spoilers.
Preferences changed depending on the used music somewhat (not surprisingly)
The worst one was consistently poor. The best one was consistently best.

I also looked at the Sennheiser comparison video and the SQ of the recordings is nowhere near an accurate representation of the actual sound.
So... the videos only show some tonal balance differences but not the actual sound.

I came to the following preference from best to worst from this video (so reality may differ):

HE400SE (a bit too sharp but is fixable)
X4
Sundara
HE4XX
HE5XX
HE6SE

The HE400SE in the video does not sound like my HE400SE so there is quite some discrepancy between this video and reality.
Also don't own the others but did have the original HE6 for a short time and thought it sounded absolutely great.
Only surpassed by EQ'ed HD800. On the video the HE6SE sounds crap, never heard it in reality yet.

 

[DrJayDub]

Picked up a pair of these after reading the review. I dialed in the recommended PEQ using my Qudelix 5K and I am a happy clam. These are awesome for home listening!

 

[GaryH]

Seeing as it's been well over an hour now and mods (who have been online since) have kept the above reply to that video up, yet deleted mine because "You quoted a post that has been deleted. So your post must go too", the only logical explanation is they must have changed their mind (yet oddly they haven't reinstated mine or the original post). So I will repeat my post here:

Obviously the video uses a flawed methodology. (Which if you want to make it even more flawed and unscientific, you'll use a modded playback headphone with a random filter tuned by ear and so a frequency response not verified with industry standard measurements.) Having said that however, it is of some note that the video reviewer's blinded order of preference is generally consistent with the predicted preferences ratings of the headphones calculated from Sean Olive's algorithm:

1. HE4XX - 89
2. HE400SE / HEX4 - 86 (score for the 400SE, but the X4 has very similar frequency response, so its score would likely be very similar too)
3. HE6SE - 81 (score for the V1, but again the V2 has a similar frequency response, so score would likely be similar)
4. Sundara - 94 (81 as measured by Sean Olive, lower probably due to unit variation & seal differences, possibly because of the lack of cup swivel)
5. HE5XX - 78

Also notable is the non-existent correlation between price and preference.

[Note to mods: If you deem a post to be off-topic, I'd advise moving it to a new thread, as previous mods have done, rather than just deleting it (resulting in the poster having to start from scratch), and doing so to similar posts no matter the member in order to maintain consistency and fairness. I have taken time here to collate and source the above objective, scientific information (in contrast to purely subjective, unscientific impressions that have remained up), which I believe to be relevant to a review of the HE400SE and considerations potential buyers may have about their sound and how it compares to models of a similar form factor from the same manufacturer. No transducer's sound quality can be properly judged in complete isolation, which is incidentally what the science tells us and why Sean Olive performs multi-way comparisons in Harman's blind listening tests. So expecting a review thread to be confined to comments only about the DUT without allowing comparisons with other models is in my opinion a futile, misguided and unscientific exercise.]

 

[MayaTlab]

Obviously the video uses a flawed methodology. (Which if you want to make it even more flawed and unscientific, you'll use a modded playback headphone with a random filter tuned by ear and so a frequency response not verified with industry standard measurements.) Having said that however, it is of some note that the video reviewer's blinded order of preference is generally consistent with the predicted preferences ratings of the headphones calculated from Sean Olive's algorithm:

1. HE4XX - 89
2. HE400SE / HEX4 - 89 (score for the 400SE, but the X4 has very similar frequency response, so its score would likely be very similar too)
3. HE6SE - 81 (score for the V1, but again the V2 has a similar frequency response, so score would likely be similar)
4. Sundara - 94 (81 as measured by Sean Olive, lower probably due to unit variation & seal differences, possibly because of the lack of cup swivel)
5. HE5XX - 78

So a flawed methodology using a test rig (which one BTW ?) not compliant with Harman's research somehow manages to produce results more or less aligned (rather less since you're already stretching it by selectively bolding Sean Olive's numbers for one of the six samples instead of Oratory's) with the predicted preference scores ? What a weird coincidence !

He changed his mind later on anyway (mind you after listening to the actual headphones sighted I suppose - oh no the horror) :


At the scores these headphones reach and given the rather small spread between some of them the predicted preference scoring system isn't going to be accurate / precise enough to be superbly relevant anyway, they can quickly swing one way or another depending on sample, measurement methodology, pinna used, etc. Give Sean Olive the same samples Oratory measured and in all likelihood you'll get slightly different scores that will shift the ranking. Interpreting the scores these headphones received beyond considering them "not crap" is over-interpreting it.

The predictive preference scoring system is quite interesting in terms of how it helps contextualising the preference for Harman's various targets over other curves, as a sort of statistical trend exercise, and reinforces the validity of Harman's findings in terms of preferred targets, but as a way to evaluate a single pair of headphones against an ideal curve it has a lot of shortcomings.
You should read the actual articles and not limit yourself to the soundbites.

 

[AdamG]

Seeing as it's been well over an hour now and mods (who have been online since) have kept the above reply to that video up, yet deleted mine because "You quoted a post that has been deleted. So your post must go too", the only logical explanation is they must have changed their mind (yet oddly they haven't reinstated mine or the original post). So I will repeat my post here:

Obviously the video uses a flawed methodology. (Which if you want to make it even more flawed and unscientific, you'll use a modded playback headphone with a random filter tuned by ear and so a frequency response not verified with industry standard measurements.) Having said that however, it is of some note that the video reviewer's blinded order of preference is generally consistent with the predicted preferences ratings of the headphones calculated from Sean Olive's algorithm:

1. HE4XX - 89
2. HE400SE / HEX4 - 89 (score for the 400SE, but the X4 has very similar frequency response, so its score would likely be very similar too)
3. HE6SE - 81 (score for the V1, but again the V2 has a similar frequency response, so score would likely be similar)
4. Sundara - 94 (81 as measured by Sean Olive, lower probably due to unit variation & seal differences, possibly because of the lack of cup swivel)
5. HE5XX - 78

Also notable is the non-existent correlation between price and preference.

[Note to mods: If you deem a post to be off-topic, I'd advise moving it to a new thread, as previous mods have done, rather than just deleting it (resulting in the poster having to start from scratch), and doing so to similar posts no matter the member in order to maintain consistency and fairness. I have taken time here to collate and source the above objective, scientific information (in contrast to purely subjective, unscientific impressions that have remained up), which I believe to be relevant to a review of the HE400SE and considerations potential buyers may have about their sound and how it compares to models of a similar form factor from the same manufacturer. No transducer's sound quality can be properly judged in complete isolation, which is incidentally what the science tells us and why Sean Olive performs multi-way comparisons in Harman's blind listening tests. So expecting a review thread to be confined to comments only about the DUT without allowing comparisons with other models is in my opinion a futile, misguided and unscientific exercise.]

We had not changed our decision. We just were not here. It’s just the two of us and almost 1 million posts now. We are not reading every post made 24/7.

Now that you went too all that trouble of reposting your comments, we will let it stay. However, posts in this thread must remain relevant to the subject review Headphones. If you want to start comparing it to other sets you really should start a separate thread. Because that conversation is separate and different from the Test Results of this set. We like to keep technical review threads clean of thread drifting. It’s a special guidance that applies to Technical Review Threads.

If we deem a post off topic we could not possibly read your mind and be able to know where you want the post moved. That’s just not possible. However had you started a new thread as I suggested, I could have worked with you to undelete your post and move it to your new thread. Jumping to conclusions like you did is not constructive in the long run. Benefit of the doubt goes both ways Sir. Next time try a pm to start a dialog. Posting like you did just puts everyone in a defensive posture.

 

[Fritz-Kola_Enthusiast]

Thank you for your subjective response to a post that was not asking for a response. Subjectivity rules here at ASR.

What subjective response? Just plot all the Hifiman FRs into Oratorys Grapher and look at the non existent differences yourself.
The only thing subjective about it is that I feel like anything that is more expensive than the cheapest Hifiman with a good response is a rip off.

 

[MrBlitzpunk]

So they're calling the chinese non-stealth edition the V1 and the global stealth edition the V2 now? I made an account just to clarify this, thinking i might've bought an inferior version just a week before a newer revision released lmao.

I got the chinese version, the non stealth. Came with a better cable (the black rubber ones) for 110$! I can't comment on the difference berween the V1 and V2 but what im hearing pretty much aligned with all the global version reviews. Aside from the comfort that is,
i did a lot of research before getting these and while most of the reviews agreed that this sounds great for the money, it seems that they couldn't agree about the comfort, it's either very comfortable or very uncomfortable, there doesn't seem to be an inbetween. Im sad to say that im on the latter side on this one, while the pads and clamp is super comfortable it's kind of offset by the ****** headband, it doesn't quite form to my head, so the weight distribution is'nt uniform and focused on the top of the headband, pressing against my head quite hard. And it's get super annoying after only 30 minutes, imagine pressing firmly on your head with your thumb for 30 minutes...
At least it gets better after some use, but it's still not ideal... not to mention the yokes creaks like a rusty knob if try to swivel it after only a week of use. So buyers beware, especially those with narrower head, the only good thing i can say about the overall build quality is the thick plush pads
Other than that, i've nothing to complain about, in terms of sound. this is my first openback planars and i kinda like that big sound that these gave me, and it just so happen that the sound signature is almost perfectly to my preference (slightly bright leaning neutral and a bit of vocal emphasis)

I've also tried the sundara, and for the short duration i've tried it on (less than 10 minutes) i can tell that it is definitely an upgrade over the 400se, at least subjectively in terms of tonalities, can't comment much on technicalities since i haven't listened for long enough to be able to tell.

 

[_thelaughingman]

For those that can understand the graph and draw their conclusions, this is the comparison of the Harman Curve for HE400se,HE4xx and Sundaras. BTW Oratory does not mention if these are V2 or V1, do interpret at your own discretion.

 

[abdo123]

Since no one has said it yet, @amirm 's EQ is THE BOMB. Really the salt and pepper to this headphone.

Simple and very effective. Thank you again for this review, enjoying my HD400SE very much so far.

 

[Theodore8]

Question to ASR Members:

Can the Topping DX3Pro+ drive the HE400SE at high volume?

I would be grateful for advice!

 

[GeorgeWalk]

Question to ASR Members:

Can the Topping DX3Pro+ drive the HE400SE at high volume?

I would be grateful for advice!

I am doing that now. How high a volume can you stand?

 

[Theodore8]

I am doing that now. How high a volume can you stand?

Thank you! I don't have a figure, but I am setting up a system for a person who is a bit hard of hearing... nothing dramatic, but needs to have music louder than the max volume a normal-hearing person would stand... (N.B. I am looking at this combination because of the attractive price.)

 

[GeorgeWalk]

Max volume at normal gain is too loud for me. With gain set to "high" I can't get it max volume, it is just too loud. My hearing isn't great; just ask my wife.

 

[Theodore8]

Max volume at normal gain is too loud for me. With gain set to "high" I can't get it max volume, it is just too loud. My hearing isn't great; just ask my wife.

Wondeful. So you are saying the DX3Pro+ can drive the HE400SE very loud without going into protection mode ?

 

[PatentLawyer]

Wondeful. So you are saying the DX3Pro+ can drive the HE400SE very loud without going into protection mode ?

An L50 drives it well beyond what I can tolerate so the DX30pro+ will set your ears on fire.

 

[Nango]

What subjective response? Just plot all the Hifiman FRs into Oratorys Grapher and look at the non existent differences yourself.
The only thing subjective about it is that I feel like anything that is more expensive than the cheapest Hifiman with a good response is a rip off.

@solderdude already made such an interactive graphs on his latest review for HE4SE and indeed the variations along all HM are very little.