Hifiman HE400i Review (planar headphone)

[solderdude]

rtings distortion measurements are very different from the ones here by a large margin. It looks MUCH cleaner on rtings

That's because the Rtings measurements are weighted. At lower frequencies we do not perceive lower order distortion as 'distortion' so Rtings 'corrected' their plots according to a certain target.

Amir also measures at much higher SPL. If one were to measure speakers at 114dB SPL at the listening position we would see even crazier numbers and huge amplifier power (2x600W with 90dB/W speakers at 10ft distance) would be needed to pull this of.
In this particular measurement Amir only went up to 104dB SPL so would be equivalent to 2x60W.
When one measures THD at 90dB SPL this would be equivalent to 2x2W in the same circumstances. 90dB and sometimes 100dB are kind of standard SPLs used in headphone measurements.

One has to understand what it is one is looking at when one sees plots.

 

[rcmo]

Thanks Rodtor, that is very helpful and I’m playing with the settings now. David

My take of Amir's on RME:
LS: +5, 65, 1
PK: -1, 50, 1
PK: +5, 1.9K, 2.5
PK: -4, 8.3K, 4
PK: +3, 5.3K, 3

Hope it helps.

 

[ehabheikal]

That's because the Rtings measurements are weighted. At lower frequencies we do not perceive lower order distortion as 'distortion' so Rtings 'corrected' their plots according to a certain target.

Amir also measures at much higher SPL. If one were to measure speakers at 114dB SPL at the listening position we would see even crazier numbers and huge amplifier power (2x600W with 90dB/W speakers at 10ft distance) would be needed to pull this of.
In this particular measurement Amir only went up to 104dB SPL so would be equivalent to 2x60W.
When one measures THD at 90dB SPL this would be equivalent to 2x2W in the same circumstances. 90dB and sometimes 100dB are kind of standard SPLs used in headphone measurements.

One has to understand what it is one is looking at when one sees plots.

Amir also does 94 db which is very close to their 90 and he does 104 which is close to their 100
As for weighted, I think that is only their rating out of 10 not the actual graph which is what i looked at.

So yes I appreciate your input I just do not think that the distortion graphs are weighted. Which would mean a large difference in distortion.

 

[solderdude]

I just do not think that the distortion graphs are weighted

You are free to think they aren't weighted.

100dB SPL @ 20Hz 0.001% ? ... not weighted ?
Amir measured it around 0.5%

 

[ehabheikal]

You are free to think they aren't weighted.

100dB SPL @ 20Hz 0.001% ? ... not weighted ?
Amir measured it around 0.5%

I looked at the graph of superlux 668 on both amir and rtings and they correlate much better than hifiman

hifiman is an open headphone, outside noise can really mess up results.

 

[solderdude]

So Amir measures HD688b at 104dB at 30Hz as 6% and that correlates better to 0.002% at 30Hz and 100dB SPL ?
0.002% = -94dB. You are sure the ambient noise at 30Hz where Rtings measures has a 6dB SPL noisefloor ?

It is weighted and I know why it was because I actually discussed this with Sam (the guy behind the headphone measurements at Rtings) when they started measuring. The first few months the measurements actually weren't weighted at all but he wanted the obtained numbers to match the perceived numbers better.
Hint: have a look at the A weighting curve and apply that knowledge to the distortion measurements at Rtings.
Then you will also understand why the range between 500Hz and a 8kHz will correlate and the distortion below a few hundred Hz will not.
At 30Hz numbers will be 40dB lower.
Now you know what weighting is used and why.

 

[ehabheikal]

y

So Amir measures HD688b at 104dB at 30Hz as 6% and that correlates better to 0.002% at 30Hz and 100dB SPL ?
0.002% = -94dB. You are sure the ambient noise at 30Hz where Rtings measures has a 6dB SPL noisefloor ?

It is weighted and I know why it was because I actually discussed this with Sam (the guy behind the headphone measurements at Rtings) when they started measuring. The first few months the measurements actually weren't weighted at all but he wanted the obtained numbers to match the perceived numbers better.
Hint: have a look at the A weighting curve and apply that knowledge to the distortion measurements at Rtings.
Then you will also understand why the range between 500Hz and a 8kHz will correlate and the distortion below a few hundred Hz will not.
At 30Hz numbers will be 40dB lower.
Now you know what weighting is used and why.

You most probably are right, that would mean that the superlux is actually much better than the hifiman when it comes to distortion?

 

[solderdude]

If I had to choose (owned both for a short period, but not at the same time) and had to keep one it would be the HE400i.
Both need some 'fixing'.
VFM wise the HD668B is the better one.
For musical enjoyment, comfort and build quality the HE400i wins.
Kept neither of them because there are better choices in both price ranges.

 

[ehabheikal]

Can you share what would you recommend as a very resolving detailed can in such range with very low distortion
To me both headphones are better than my systems including ls50 meta connected to purifi amp and soncoz dac

i added some quality earpads to the hd668 and it makes it more comfortable and luxurious, and i feel it is a bit better than the he400i, but my hearing is that of an old man which i am

so a 40$ can and 150 dac/amp topping nx4 gives me better sound than a 3000usd+ system.

If I had to choose (owned both for a short period, but not at the same time) and had to keep one it would be the HE400i.
Both need some 'fixing'.
VFM wise the HD668B is the better one.
For musical enjoyment, comfort and build quality the HE400i wins.
Kept neither of them because there are better choices in both price ranges.

 

[solderdude]

The problem with recommendations is that what works for me may not work for another.

Just look at any of the 'recommend me a ... (whatever)' thread and you will get recommendations from all sorts of people about all sorts of 'best (insert device here)'
When someone gives me a choice to pick whatever I would choose and have experience with I can tell my choice and why. My reasoning is just mine. Someone else may totally disagree. There is no right or wrong. There are preferences and something may suit you or not.

 

[Robbo99999]

Can you share what would you recommend as a very resolving detailed can in such range with very low distortion
To me both headphones are better than my systems including ls50 meta connected to purifi amp and soncoz dac

i added some quality earpads to the hd668 and it makes it more comfortable and luxurious, and i feel it is a bit better than the he400i, but my hearing is that of an old man which i am

so a 40$ can and 150 dac/amp topping nx4 gives me better sound than a 3000usd+ system.

(It's easy for headphones to be better than "any" speaker system due to not suffering from room modes in the bass, which massively improves bass detail, also distortion across the whole frequency range is lower in headphones, as well as in any quality hardware that drives those headphones, but headphones lack in spatial qualities and also in treble accuracy......but it can be hard to surpass the detail of good headphones for those reasons. You can't compare headphones to speaker systems in any meaningful way if you're trying to compare different headphones, it's just an apples & oranges situation. Good headphones will show you the limitations of your speaker systems and will show you a bar to aim for in terms of bass clarity, and to some extent fine timbre/detail in some other areas, just they're not as accurate in the treble as speakers for anatomical/headphone relational reasons & also with regards to spatial qualities).

 

[sejarzo]

so a 40$ can and 150 dac/amp topping nx4 gives me better sound than a 3000usd+ system.

IF increased detail is what you are seeking and lack of boomy/one-note bass without multiple subs and DRC, yeah, I would have to agree.

To most of us here, increased true detail (and not just edginess in the higher registers) is by definition better sound.

On other other hand, I worked with a guy who listened to classical music all day at work on some of those beige Altec Lansing computer speakers that were ubiquitous in the early 2000s. When I brought in a USB DAC, headamp, and HD600s for him to hear what real resolution was like, he wasn't so sure he liked hearing all that extra detail. I know I can now hear little grunts/groans and movement of the conductor on the podium in some recordings with HE400i or HD650 that I never heard on those recordings over fairly well-regarded speaker rigs.

So as solderdude noted...there's a lot of variation in what folks are after in this hobby.

 

[ehabheikal]

IF increased detail is what you are seeking and lack of boomy/one-note bass without multiple subs and DRC, yeah, I would have to agree.

To most of us here, increased true detail (and not just edginess in the higher registers) is by definition better sound.

On other other hand, I worked with a guy who listened to classical music all day at work on some of those beige Altec Lansing computer speakers that were ubiquitous in the early 2000s. When I brought in a USB DAC, headamp, and HD600s for him to hear what real resolution was like, he wasn't so sure he liked hearing all that extra detail. I know I can now hear little grunts/groans and movement of the conductor on the podium in some recordings with HE400i or HD650 that I never heard on those recordings over fairly well-regarded speaker rigs.

So as solderdude noted...there's a lot of variation in what folks are after in this hobby.

I want the purity of sound that was promised when they made the CD as a young man
I personally love detail to feel the timbre of instruments or voices, and bass but not boomy bass, accurate bass, i have a pair or paradim s6 first version, that have bass to die for, and yes no headphone will hit you in the chest like these but the very timbre of the bass is still much better on these headphones that i have. I doubt any real speaker within my budget will get such, maybe just because of "hearing the room"

 

[Robbo99999]

I want the purity of sound that was promised when they made the CD as a young man
I personally love detail to feel the timbre of instruments or voices, and bass but not boomy bass, accurate bass, i have a pair or paradim s6 first version, that have bass to die for, and yes no headphone will hit you in the chest like these but the very timbre of the bass is still much better on these headphones that i have. I doubt any real speaker within my budget will get such, maybe just because of "hearing the room"

In my opinion, for affordable audio nirvana, you need three things to check. First, you need a set of reference speakers that are accepted & measured as such (probably from this site), and that will be your benchmark or neutral sound/tonality. Secondly, you need a set of headphones that provide for you the same neutral sound/tonality as your reference speakers - this is harder to achieve due to natural physical antatomical deviations between people and by extension you have to be lucky for instance if you EQ the headphone to the Headphone Harman Curve and it happens to be neutral for you (as it is for me mostly) then you can compare your headphone sound on your favourite and well known tracks to that on your speakers....thereby knowing that tonality wise they are the same or very similar. Once you know your headphones are tonality wise the same or very similar to your reference speakers then you have the advantage of enjoying room mode free clear bass on your headphones, but only if the third criteria is satisfied. The third criteria is that you've chosen some headphones that can play low bass without significant distortion and also chosen headphones that can go at least most of the way to satisfy the spatial qualities of a 2 channel speaker system, and by this I mean the "soundstage" quality, and in my experience my AKG K702 is the only headphone that does that for me, but for you that might not be the case. So there's a few hurdles to cross, and a lot of luck required to hope that you meet the Harman EQ criteria which enables you to easily EQ your headphone to neutral as well as build in some spatial qualities within that frequency response. Unfortunately, there's a lot of hurdles to cross, and you have to be lucky at a number of stages in terms of if the Harman Curve fits you combined with choosing a headphone that can satisfy the spatial needs whilst also being EQ'able to that Harman Curve. This is my experience re headphones after trying a number of different models and also whilst owning a reference speaker system & whilst confidently manipulating EQ on both my speakers & headpones, I feel I'm very lucky in how all the dice have landed, but this is my take on how to achieve cheap audio nirvana.....ultimately through headphones - because it's more expensive but less complicated through speakers! If headphones didn't work for me like they do, then I would be investing more in speakers, and that would cost a lot more in speakers & also in room treatments and room EQ efforts.

(That's not to say I don't enjoy listening to my speakers, it's a more social event and I can move around more and you feel the bass rather than just hear it, but to be honest the Harman Curve has increased bass to make up for that deficit, but it's not quite the same.....but at the same time the headphone bass is a lot clearer & better defined.....it's just a different experience......so speaker music is still important to me, just I probably would have put more effort & money into my speakers if my headphones didn't satisfy me as much).

Headphones is really luck of draw all things considered.....luck.

 

[sejarzo]

...(That's not to say I don't enjoy listening to my speakers, it's a more social event and I can move around more and you feel the bass rather than just hear it, but to be honest the Harman Curve has increased bass to make up for that deficit, but it's not quite the same.....but at the same time the headphone bass is a lot clearer & better defined.....it's just a different experience......so speaker music is still important to me, just I probably would have put more effort & money into my speakers if my headphones didn't satisfy me as much).

I think you nailed it there. I think we all come to the realization sooner or later that multimiked/multitracked material mixed down in a control room to conform to that producer's idea at that point in time isn't anything like an absolute reproduction of a live performance, and thus it should be enjoyed for what it is on speakers or headphones. Neither of them are the same as a live performance to me, as it's impossible for either eproduce the clarity of low bass that one hears in a proper concert hall (or at least, I have yet to experience it.)

 

[Robbo99999]

I think you nailed it there. I think we all come to the realization sooner or later that multimiked/multitracked material mixed down in a control room to conform to that producer's idea at that point in time isn't anything like an absolute reproduction of a live performance, and thus it should be enjoyed for what it is on speakers or headphones. Neither of them are the same as a live performance to me, as it's impossible for either eproduce the clarity of low bass that one hears in a proper concert hall (or at least, I have yet to experience it.)

Hey, well that's fair enough, I have close to zero experience when it comes to relating recorded music to live music, so I have to take your word for that, so I'm only basing my comments on recorded music as played on 2 channel reference speakers - that's my benchmark standard.

(At the same time "Live Music" is influenced by your position in the room & the room it's being played in, amoungst other variables, so there's confusion within that reference too.........in fact I would actually surmise that carefully crafted recorded music is the final version of what is intended to be heard so I think "Live Music" as a reference is probably a bit of a diversion).

 

[ehabheikal]

In my opinion, for affordable audio nirvana, you need three things to check. First, you need a set of reference speakers that are accepted & measured as such (probably from this site), and that will be your benchmark or neutral sound/tonality. Secondly, you need a set of headphones that provide for you the same neutral sound/tonality as your reference speakers - this is harder to achieve due to natural physical antatomical deviations between people and by extension you have to be lucky for instance if you EQ the headphone to the Headphone Harman Curve and it happens to be neutral for you (as it is for me mostly) then you can compare your headphone sound on your favourite and well known tracks to that on your speakers....thereby knowing that tonality wise they are the same or very similar. Once you know your headphones are tonality wise the same or very similar to your reference speakers then you have the advantage of enjoying room mode free clear bass on your headphones, but only if the third criteria is satisfied. The third criteria is that you've chosen some headphones that can play low bass without significant distortion and also chosen headphones that can go at least most of the way to satisfy the spatial qualities of a 2 channel speaker system, and by this I mean the "soundstage" quality, and in my experience my AKG K702 is the only headphone that does that for me, but for you that might not be the case. So there's a few hurdles to cross, and a lot of luck required to hope that you meet the Harman EQ criteria which enables you to easily EQ your headphone to neutral as well as build in some spatial qualities within that frequency response. Unfortunately, there's a lot of hurdles to cross, and you have to be lucky at a number of stages in terms of if the Harman Curve fits you combined with choosing a headphone that can satisfy the spatial needs whilst also being EQ'able to that Harman Curve. This is my experience re headphones after trying a number of different models and also whilst owning a reference speaker system & whilst confidently manipulating EQ on both my speakers & headpones, I feel I'm very lucky in how all the dice have landed, but this is my take on how to achieve cheap audio nirvana.....ultimately through headphones - because it's more expensive but less complicated through speakers! If headphones didn't work for me like they do, then I would be investing more in speakers, and that would cost a lot more in speakers & also in room treatments and room EQ efforts.

(That's not to say I don't enjoy listening to my speakers, it's a more social event and I can move around more and you feel the bass rather than just hear it, but to be honest the Harman Curve has increased bass to make up for that deficit, but it's not quite the same.....but at the same time the headphone bass is a lot clearer & better defined.....it's just a different experience......so speaker music is still important to me, just I probably would have put more effort & money into my speakers if my headphones didn't satisfy me as much).

Headphones is really luck of draw all things considered.....luck.

Your input is greatly appreciated really.

 

[markanini]

I question whether detail hunting diverges from what the audio engineers intended for the music. Still I like how headphones have a uncluttered presentation compared to speakers. Reflections cause cancellations and smearing of transients in normal rooms.

 

[Jimbob54]

Hey, well that's fair enough, I have close to zero experience when it comes to relating recorded music to live music, so I have to take your word for that, so I'm only basing my comments on recorded music as played on 2 channel reference speakers - that's my benchmark standard.

(At the same time "Live Music" is influenced by your position in the room & the room it's being played in, amoungst other variables, so there's confusion within that reference too.........in fact I would actually surmise that carefully crafted recorded music is the final version of what is intended to be heard so I think "Live Music" as a reference is probably a bit of a diversion).

I'd agree with that- I suspect anyone seeking to get close to the live experience in a home speaker setting might be aiming for acoustic type gigs with clearly defined instruments/ vocals, not a balls to the wall rock show in a concrete box (the kind of gigs in small venues by up and coming bands etc). The levels of volume and, frankly, crap sound (from an objective standpoint) at the latter are possibly not worth chasing at home, and not something you would want in a recording. I think the best live albums are those that capture the performance more than the "event"- so stripping out most of the crowd noise and presumably recording the feed from each instrument separately and mixing that, not what is going out over the PA.

 

[Robbo99999]

Folks, someone told me today that there's a new EQ from Oratory out for the Drop Hifiman HE4XX, I've checked it out and it's really very good, here is the link to Oratory's new EQ:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rp71fprbe1lmz7u/Hifiman HE4XX.pdf?dl=0

He hasn't posted anywhere at all that the EQ has been updated, but this is a good improvement over the previous EQ. It doesn't carryover the large High Shelf Boost that was on his previous EQ, for some reason he had a large High Shelf Boost north of 10kHz on his previous EQ. Other changes are slight changes to the measurement on which the EQ is based.....he's smoothed out the frequency response of the measurement either by having measured more units of the headphone or by applying a smoothing function, I don't know which. I have to say I'm impressed with this EQ and it seems to have completely removed the harshness that could be exhibited by the HE4XX in vocals, now vocals feel very smooth and yet resolved in detail. The bass has also been extended more with his new EQ, now it's basically hugging the Harman Curve all the way down to 20Hz, and I'm very impressed that this headphone can tolerate a +9dB Low Shelf Boost that remains active all the way down to 0Hz, doesn't seem to have any negative impact on clarity on the rest of the frequency range.

I also tried this new EQ combined with Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing (from Soundblaster) in Battlefield 1 PC first person shooter, and the spatial qualities were very improved over what I remember when I tried this headphone out for the same purposes.

Overall I'm extremely impressed with this new EQ from Oratory and as a result I think I'm gonna be using the HE4XX a lot more than I was. It's seriously vying with my K702 now. Didn't expect this EQ to make such a difference.