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Hifiman HE400i Review (planar headphone)

bobbooo

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I think there's something wrong with my HE4XX and I wanted to pick some peoples brains on it. I bought it recently the last couple of weeks, and I've not been using it loads as I've still had better results with my K702, but revisited the HE4XX EQ today, and I think the HE4XX is giving me tinnitus (which I'm not susceptible to, and I don't listen loud). When I first got them couple of weeks ago the same thing happened, but I assumed it was something in my room making the high pitched tone or a temporary problem with my ear....I stopped using the HE4XX the last week and the tinnitus went away....today I start messing with the HE4XX and it's come back. So I think the HE4XX is causing it. Another thing that makes me think it's the HE4XX is that there is some strange but subtle "distortion" particularly around female vocals and high hats, where there seems to be additional higher pitched ringing surrounding or even preceding those sounds, and it's that ringing that is the same pitch as this tinnitus I'm experiencing. I think there's something wrong with my HE4XX and it's throwing out some dangerous tones, or that's just the way they are.....I'm not sure. I'm also not doing silly boosting of high frequencies in my EQ's, so it's not that, and I even tested not boosting the treble dip at 5500Hz to see if there was something associated with a sharp boost there that was causing distortion & my tinnitus.......I even tried EQ's that only boosted the bass by half my original boost value to see if bass boost was making the HE4XX throw out some weird high pitched distortion. Here's one of my EQ's just so you can see the Frequency Response of the original stock HE4XX as well as a bit more context for my EQ's, it's almost the same model of headphone as the HE400i, hence me posting in this thread, just some different pads and maybe some other subtle changes:
View attachment 106688
I gotta say it's really not been a pleasant experience with this headphone because of this discovery of mine. By the way I was listening to my K702 most of the day today playing some computer games and listening to some music, and it was only after donning the HE4XX for a 2 minute listening test that I noticed the tinnitus came back, so I really think this is the HE4XX fault.

EDIT: one more additional thought, this headphone in stock format has a very grainy holographic type sound (first thing that came into my head as soon as I heard it), which is especially noticeable at high volumes. I say high volumes because I flipped between EQ's using EqualiserAPO by turning one off & turning the other on.....so there's a brief period where the headphone is playing in it's stock un'EQd format at an extra 8dB due to no negative preamp.....and this is when I noticed this very grainy holographic type sound of this headphone when stock at loud volumes. An additional point to help diagnose the issue perhaps.

EDIT #2: a lot of the graininess is removed with the Harman EQ's, but still some persists.....if this helps narrow down the problem.

I'm susceptible to tinnitus and don't have any issues with my HE4XX. There's also nothing in their measurements to suggest they would be the cause of your problems (e.g. their distortion is nice and low as I've posted previously). So the most likely explanations are a faulty unit or coincidence combined with psychosomatic effects. I suspect the latter.
 

Jimbob54

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They're not (definitely not on the outside and possibly not on the inside either). Please read my post earlier in this thread.
Indeed. But in the dekoni range, the hybrid is closest to the stock 400i and probably to the 4xx stock too.
 

Robbo99999

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Is it both ears BTW? I doubt both drivers could have the same defect.

Other possibilities, you have a partial blockage /wax in one ear that the 4xx excites that others don't, or the physical fit /clamp is in some way causing a ringing. Unlikely.
It's true that I do have waxy ears and sometimes have to unblock them maybe once or twice per year. It's also true that the HE4XX plays the sub bass more prevalently than my other headphones apart from my NAD HP50, but that HP50 doesn't cause the problem. I think you might be onto something re the physical fit/clamp. It's the highest pressure clamping headphone I own, even though it's very comfortable with the soft pads.....and I found a post on superbestaudiofriends (https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ents-and-impressions.4815/page-14#post-180199) where someone said that the HE4XX was causing them tinnitus because of the high clamping force, it was causing inflammation of their TMJ joint, which is apparently related to your jaw bone joint....I'm not really aware of any problems with my jaw though. My head is not small though (although not oversized), so perhaps higher clamping force than an average wearer.

EDIT: yeah, the tinnitus seems to be both ears.
I'm susceptible to tinnitus and don't have any issues with my HE4XX. There's also nothing in their measurements to suggest they would be the cause of your problems (e.g. their distortion is nice and low as I've posted previously). So the most likely explanations are a faulty unit or coincidence combined with psychosomatic effects. I suspect the latter.
It's strange, I didn't think it was the headphones the first time it happened over a week ago (and just so happen to have not used them since as using K702), but then it came back after a short listening session with the HE4XX this afternoon. Maybe it is related to the high clamping force of the headphone as Jimbob suggested, but there's no pain with the wearing of them as the pads are so soft, but maybe it's doing something the high clamping force. I could try bending the headphone band in the opposite direction to reduce the clamping force and then try them again.

EDIT: bent them out the other way and tried them on again, a lot more comfortable, now that I think about it my jaw is quite sensitive around my ears, and for some reason I can hear more of the outside world through the headphone with a lower clamp force (no music playing, still visibly sealing well)....I'm wondering if the high clamp force was desensitising or influencing my hearing.....very preliminary findings, still bending out the headband.

EDIT #2: did some listening with the stretched out headband. More comfortable to wear and I think they sound better than they did.....they sound a little brighter now (they were a bit dull before) while at the same time sounding smoother now, which is a bit of a strange combination - possibly changed the frequency response a bit as the pads not being compressed as much and/or maybe some influence of the clamping pressure on my hearing too. Early days, requires more testing and a tad more stretching out of the headband.

@bobbooo , do you have quite a narrow or small head by any chance, because I know you said you get on very well with the HE4XX?

@Jimbob54 , you say you don't like the HE4XX or HE400i much (can't remember which).....have you got a big head, maybe you could benefit by stretching out the headband for a lower clamping pressure and lower pad compression?
 
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Robbo99999

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I'd say pretty average. Possibly slightly on the narrower side.
Ah, you probably didn't suffer from the tight headband of the HE4XX. I think that was the cause for my issues, I'll need to give it more time though.
 

Jimbob54

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you say you don't like the HE4XX or HE400i much (can't remember which).....have you got a big head, maybe you could benefit by stretching out the headband for a lower clamping pressure and lower pad compression?

Thats why I suggested it ;-) 4XX for me - Any HP I get that is too clampy gets the Bullworker treatment early doors.

But thats not why I dont rate it highly. I just dont think it has the clarity of others I own- or , being really subjective, it doesnt sound "special". Its not a bad sounding phone , just not my cup of tea.
 

Robbo99999

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Thats why I suggested it ;-) 4XX for me - Any HP I get that is too clampy gets the Bullworker treatment early doors.

But thats not why I dont rate it highly. I just dont think it has the clarity of others I own- or , being really subjective, it doesnt sound "special". Its not a bad sounding phone , just not my cup of tea.
Loosening up the headband increased the clarity and increased the smoothness of the HE4XX in my quick listening last night, perhaps you could try loosening up the band a bit more, might be worth a try.....I mean you obviously don't want to get to the point where they're falling off your head though! :D
 

bobbooo

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Indeed. But in the dekoni range, the hybrid is closest to the stock 400i and probably to the 4xx stock too.

If you're basing that on Dekoni's measurements, that's not reliable. Their measurement system is not fully compliant with industry standards. Jaakko Pasanen of AutoEQ did an analysis of Innerfidelity's and Rtings' data (who use the same rig as Dekoni) and found significant deviations from professional measurements using industry standard equipment:

ZedAZcB.png


ia8BZEN.png


Even a comparison of different pad measurements on such a non-standard rig will not be accurate, due to the coupler not having the same acoustic impedance as the human ear, which then interacts in an inconsistent way with the acoustic impedance of different headphones/pads. This is all explained by Oratory in this excellent Reddit post. If you change pads, you have to consider it as effectively a different headphone, with a possibly significantly different acoustic impedance caused by changes in seal/leakage of the pads (which is dependent not only on their visible outer materials/structure, but very much that of the internal padding too).

And, once again, the HE4XX and HE400i use quite different pads, which is both obviously visable from the outside, and can be seen by their effect on the measured frequency responses of the headphones, all explained and shown with photos and graphs in my earlier post I asked you to read. So no, an inference cannot be made that the Dekoni hybrid pads are probably closest in sound to the stock HE4XX pads. (Even concluding they're sonically closest to the HE400i pads is on shaky ground due to Dekoni's non-industry standard measurements.)
 
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Jimbob54

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If you're basing that on Dekoni's measurements, that's not reliable. Their measurement system is not fully compliant with industry standards. Jaakko Pasanen of AutoEQ did an analysis of Innerfidelity's and Rtings' data (who use the same rig as Dekoni) and found significant deviations from professional measurements using industry standard equipment:

ZedAZcB.png


ia8BZEN.png


Even a comparison of different pad measurements on such a non-standard rig will not be accurate, due to the coupler not having the same acoustic impedance as the human ear, which then interacts in an inconsistent way with the acoustic impedance of different headphones/pads. This is all explained by Oratory in this excellent Reddit post. If you change pads, you have to consider it as effectively a different headphone, with a possibly significantly different acoustic impedance caused by changes in seal/leakage of the pads (which is dependent not only on their visible outer materials/structure, but that of the internal padding too).

And, once again, the HE4XX and HE400i use quite different pads, which is both obviously visable from the outside, and can be seen by their effect on the measured frequency responses of the headphones, all explained and shown with photos and graphs in my earlier post I asked you to read. So no, an inference cannot be made that the Dekoni hybrid pads are probably closest to the stock HE4XX pads. (Even concluding they're sonically closest to the HE400i pads is on shaky ground due to Dekoni's non-industry standard measurements.)

Which is all well and good, but if someone wants new pads and cant get/ doesnt want stock- they have to get something from somewhere. I think some people are making a little bit much of something that really is not an issue in most peoples' lives. Even those that love their headphones.
 

Robbo99999

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Which is all well and good, but if someone wants new pads and cant get/ doesnt want stock- they have to get something from somewhere. I think some people are making a little bit much of something that really is not an issue in most peoples' lives. Even those that love their headphones.
That's true, but then they wouldn't bother coming on here to find the most accurate way of enjoying music on speakers or headphones, we're striving to get the most accurate representation, and when it comes to headphones then this is more of a strife!
 

Jimbob54

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That's true, but then they wouldn't bother coming on here to find the most accurate way of enjoying music on speakers or headphones, we're striving to get the most accurate representation, and when it comes to headphones then this is more of a strife!

Yes, but the question I was posting about was a dialogue with @watchnerd specifically discussing Dekoni pads for 400i . It recognised new pads change the nature of the phone and obviously the measurements. But unless Oratory or similar is going to start measuring every headphone with tens of possible pad options, then people will largely go with customer reviews and recommendations plus whatever limited science is available. Telling them repeatedly they are buggering up a good EQ when most on this forum would already know that and frankly not care too much is just dead space.

This is especially true if either you cant get on with stock (like watchnerd) or cant acquire/afford stock- see Focal Clear $200 or so. Banging on that it will ruin the EQ is of zero relevance to that situation. And then there are the compulsive pad rollers who do it BECAUSE of the impact they might/ allegedly have on the sonics. Thats a huge part of the pad market (see Zeos etc). Misguided, perhaps, or perhaps not. The point has been well made about the downside of pad rolling- it doesnt need saying everytime somebody breathes about aftermarket pads.
 

watchnerd

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That's true, but then they wouldn't bother coming on here to find the most accurate way of enjoying music on speakers or headphones, we're striving to get the most accurate representation, and when it comes to headphones then this is more of a strife!

You're right --- screw the HE-400i.

They need EQ to sound right....which can't be used, empirically, unless one uses the stock pads.

And the stock headphone pads are compliant with test results, but are too hot for my ears so they're no fun.

So that's that...back on the shelf they go.

I'll just go listen to my K371s or HD6XX instead, where the stock pads don't bother me and I can be compliant with existing test results.
 
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Robbo99999

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Yes, but the question I was posting about was a dialogue with @watchnerd specifically discussing Dekoni pads for 400i . It recognised new pads change the nature of the phone and obviously the measurements. But unless Oratory or similar is going to start measuring every headphone with tens of possible pad options, then people will largely go with customer reviews and recommendations plus whatever limited science is available. Telling them repeatedly they are buggering up a good EQ when most on this forum would already know that and frankly not care too much is just dead space.

This is especially true if either you cant get on with stock (like watchnerd) or cant acquire/afford stock- see Focal Clear $200 or so. Banging on that it will ruin the EQ is of zero relevance to that situation. And then there are the compulsive pad rollers who do it BECAUSE of the impact they might/ allegedly have on the sonics. Thats a huge part of the pad market (see Zeos etc). Misguided, perhaps, or perhaps not. The point has been well made about the downside of pad rolling- it doesnt need saying everytime somebody breathes about aftermarket pads.
You're right --- screw the HE-400i.

They need EQ to sound right....which can't be used, empirically, unless one uses the stock pads.

And the stock headphone pads are compliant with test results, but are too hot for my ears so they're no fun.

So that's that...back on the shelf they go.

I'll just go listen to my K371s or HD6XX instead, where the stock pads don't bother me and I can be compliant with existing test results.
I'd (just) send the HE4XX with the different pads to Oratory in Austria so he can measure them, and then you'll be able to use the EQ he'd do for them. He's pretty receptive to testing new headphones, and possibly existing headphones with different pads (although less sure on the last point). I'm gonna send him my K702 soon along with some new pads so he can measure new vs old pads whilst also adding K702 to his database.....he's OK'd it, I'm just waiting for new pads from Thomann. It is harder if you're over in The States, does Crinacle live over there? (Hell, you could send them to Amir considering you're in The States, if he's interested in testing a headphone with non-standard pads.....he could compare standard vs non-standard as a little article addition).
 

Jimbob54

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I'd (just) send the HE4XX with the different pads to Oratory in Austria so he can measure them, and then you'll be able to use the EQ he'd do for them. He's pretty receptive to testing new headphones, and possibly existing headphones with different pads (although less sure on the last point). I'm gonna send him my K702 soon along with some new pads so he can measure new vs old pads whilst also adding K702 to his database.....he's OK'd it, I'm just waiting for new pads from Thomann. It is harder if you're over in The States, does Crinacle live over there? (Hell, you could send them to Amir considering you're in The States, if he's interested in testing a headphone with non-standard pads.....he could compare standard vs non-standard as a little article addition).
Not sure the measurerbators will thank you for that idea when the YouTubers get whiff of it.
 

ahofer

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Hey thanks @amirm, I just got a 2020 pair of these for about $160 on Amazon, tweaked them up with Roon DSP, and have been enjoying them while I work. These are far more efficient than my Sennheisers, and will work pretty well on my laptop headphone jack, and with my weaker DAC/amps (Pro-Ject, iFi, I’m looking at you).

They turned out to be very comfortable for long work stretches.
 

bobbooo

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Which is all well and good, but if someone wants new pads and cant get/ doesnt want stock- they have to get something from somewhere. I think some people are making a little bit much of something that really is not an issue in most peoples' lives. Even those that love their headphones.

Well if you care at all about sound quality, then it should be a big issue to you. Take a look at the effect of Dekoni's pads on a couple of other headphones:

Harman 2018-Sennheiser HD800S (Dekoni Fenestrated Sheepskin Earpads)-Sennheiser HD800S.png


Here the Dekoni pads turn the HD800S into a bass-light, trebly, (even more) peaky mess, completely changing the headphone's tonality, from a stock compensated frequency response slope value as calculated by AutoEQ of 0.08 (0 being neutral), to 0.9 (>0 being brighter) with the Dekoni pads, and a predicted preference rating going from 83/100 stock to just 65 with these pads.


How about the Beyerdynamic DT770:

Harman 2018-Beyerdynamic DT770 (Dekoni Hybrid Earpads)-Beyerdynamic DT770 (fresh earpads)-Beye...png


What an utter crapshoot that is :D They could all be different models if you didn't know it was only pad differences. I'll repeat the quote from Oratory that I posted previously, as it obviously just isn't sinking in:

Pads certainly affect the sound a lot more than people would often think. I'd go as far as to say they're as important as the actual driver.

...

The effect of earpads is rather tricky to predict. Personally I'll say it's even trickier than the effect of drivers.


If someone started swapping out the drivers in their headphones for 3rd party ones, no-one would say that would 'not be an issue' for their sound quality. The same should be the case for pads. People need to stop thinking of them as just a means of comfort - they're an integral part of the acoustic design of a headphone, just as important a part as the drivers, as Oratory says. And trying to second-guess a change of pad's sonic influence just from looking at them is a futile exercise.
 
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Robbo99999

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Not sure the measurerbators will thank you for that idea when the YouTubers get whiff of it.
Ha, yeah, you mean they'll get inundated with measurement requests of phones with different non-standard pads! Well they can always say no, I'm confident they like measuring new phones, less confident about bothering doing it just for different pads, but I can't speak for Oratory or anyone else.
 

Jimbob54

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Well if you care at all about sound quality, then it should be a big issue to you. Take a look at the effect of Dekoni's pads on a couple of other headphones:

View attachment 106929

Here the Dekoni pads turn the HD800S into a bass-light, trebly, (even more) peaky mess, completely changing the headphone's tonality, from a stock slope value as calculated by AutoEQ of 0.08 (0 being neutral), to 0.9 (>0 being brighter) with the Dekoni pads, and a predicted preference rating going from 83 stock to just 65 with these pads.


How about the Beyerdynamic DT770:

View attachment 106938

What an utter crapshoot that is :D They could all be different models if you didn't know it was only pad differences. I'll repeat the quote from Oratory that I posted previously, as it obviously just isn't sinking in:




If someone started swapping out the drivers in their headphones for 3rd party ones, no-one would say that would 'not be an issue' for their sound quality. The same should be the case for pads. People need to stop thinking of them as just a means of comfort - they're an integral part of the acoustic design of a headphone, just as important a part as the drivers, as Oratory says. And trying to second-guess a change of pad's sonic influence just from looking at them is a futile exercise.
Remarkably, another unsolicited treatise on the same point you've made at least 3 times already in this thread. I heard you. I maybe don't quite care as much as you.
 

watchnerd

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I'd (just) send the HE4XX with the different pads to Oratory in Austria so he can measure them, and then you'll be able to use the EQ he'd do for them.

There are half a dozen other well-regarded mid fi headphones in the world for me to use, including ones I already own.

It's just not worth the bother, especially given headphones aren't my primary listening modality.
 
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