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Hifiman Edition XS

ngs428

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I got this for my Sundara (which I sold after getting the XS). Fits the XS just as well.

I would love to get this one, but it states it is not available to the US.
 

Vantavimeow

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I had a pair of edition XS and returned them after a couple of days after having connection issues with the earcup jacks. They seem need quite a bit of power to not sound "dead", swapping from S/E to Balanced on my A50S was night and day. Their build quality/design is pretty pathetic like usual however, I've written off the brand completely at this point. Reassembling the earcup after trying to have a peek at the wiring was nauseating, there's no real cable routing/management it's just mashed in there, how they "assemble" them without guillotining the cable is beyond me.
 

odyo

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I had a pair of edition XS and returned them after a couple of days after having connection issues with the earcup jacks. They seem need quite a bit of power to not sound "dead", swapping from S/E to Balanced on my A50S was night and day. Their build quality/design is pretty pathetic like usual however, I've written off the brand completely at this point. Reassembling the earcup after trying to have a peek at the wiring was nauseating, there's no real cable routing/management it's just mashed in there, how they "assemble" them without guillotining the cable is beyond me.
From material to design to execution... Hifiman builds really bad.
 

ngs428

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Anyone else have 2 serial numbers stamped on their warranty card? Which one do I use to register?
 

mrbungle

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Anyone else have 2 serial numbers stamped on their warranty card? Which one do I use to register?
One for each driver, I added both iirc.
 

ngs428

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The XS fit in my case for my 4XX, I was quite surprised. It is the Slappa case from Amazon found here: AMAZON LINK
I wear them on the smallest setting, so it works well here, since they have to be pushed all the way in to fit. Also, they fit better when the RH cup is on the RH side.

Initial thoughts, they are not as large (physical size) as was mentioned. If you wear you 6XX less than 4 notches out, it may be an issue, but the XS on the smallest setting works well for me. Also the talk of loose clamp, it is looser than my other headphones, but I just usually listen sitting in 1 spot with these. No issue there.

Also, power requirements were overstated. On my L30/E30 I am at -9bD now and at 1:00 on the dial and volume is plenty. Obviously depends on the source material. The RG on this track is -11.47 dB. I don't have RG on.

IMG_3784.JPG
 
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GaryH

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I'm not positive it is either - but what it can explain is the reports of more/stronger bass on the XS for example. With that other question of "what is slam", I don't have an answer for you yet unfortunately as I'm still trying to figure that out. But I do think the use of in-ear mics can at the very least help figure out if reports of this quality by listeners are being influenced by bass level and coupling when on an actual human head. I'd say that's the first thing to rule out before going looking for something else. So far, the best I've come up with is that there seems to be a necessary but not sufficient condition of low FS for this subjective quality, but also only because anything that has a super high Fs seems to do quite poorly.

Also re this: "why the LCD-series has such a serious bass-punch" - not in all cases, and I'd argue that the open-back Focals seem to still do even better at it too. Then you might say, "must be because of the extra mid-bass", but then find numerous counterexamples that have an elevated mid-bass that are poorly received for this quality.

What I've found is that... when trying to correlate this stuff with measurements, there are counterexamples everywhere. So I'm still at a loss there.

There seem to be some misunderstandings around all this. The resonance you're observing with your broken-seal measurements is specifically the Helmholtz resonance within the front volume (dependent on not only the driver, but the headphone enclosure, pads and artificial ear canal), with the specific degree of broken seal you have artificially introduced. Oratory explains the Helmoltz resonance here (in the context of an IEM, but the same acoustic principles also apply to headphones):
The sound pressure in the front volume ("front volume" = "volume of air between the diaphragm of the loudspeaker and your eardrum") depends on the excursion of the diaphragm ("how far the diaphragm is moving forward and backward").

This is because the wavelengths of sound in the audio range are much larger than the dimensions of that volume (which is the fundamental difference between earphones/headphones and loudspeakers), and it is the main difference why the drivers used in headphones are fundamentally different to the drivers used in large loudspeaker cabinets.

A venting hole in the front volume means that air can escape and sound pressure is reduced - but not at all frequencies. The size of the front volume and the diameter/length of the venting hole form a Helmholtz resonator, and only frequencies *below* the resonance frequency of that Helmholtz resonator are reduced - for frequencies above the Helmholtz resonance, the vent acts as if it was closed (because the air inside the venting hole can not move fast enough for frequencies above the Helmholtz resonance frequency to escape).

Adding a vent to the front volume reduces sound pressure below the Helmholtz resonance.
With the key point at the end:
Changing the dimensions of this vent changes the resonance frequency, and therefore changes the amount of change caused by this vent.
This is what you are effectively doing by introducing a broken seal - changing the (total) dimensions of the front volume 'vents'/'ports', and so the Helmholtz resonance frequency will change accordingly. In what way does it change?
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/m6vwgc/_/gr9flc6 In more detail, the Helmholtz resonance frequency f_H is defined as:
204f4f36021a31a2c1c6eb6be691e5d86faf034f

where v is the speed of sound, V_0 is the volume of the air cavity, and A and L_eq relate to the (total) dimensions of the 'neck' (vents) of the resonator (cross-sectional area and length respectively). When breaking the seal of a headphone on the rig, the total cross-sectional area A of the resonator vent increases (but L_eq doesn't). As the Helmholtz resonance frequency f_H is proportional to the square root of A, as you increase the area of the vent by increasing the amount of seal breach, the resonance frequency will increase, and vice versa as I stated in my previous post ("smaller vent => lower resonance frequency"). Your own measurements actually show this e.g. the DCA Stealth (green=small leak, orange=large leak):
6e9bdfae31e2a829257416e1a03ac28e8bff9995.png

Now, these measurements are not even relevant to how a headphone will sound if these seal breaches do not occur on the listener's head. It's like boring out a bigger port in a subwoofer, measuring the sub's frequency response and concluding that can explain subjective perceptions of its original sound before you made this 'mod'. In the case of the DCA Stealth, for you they do seal well and do not show the above bass drop-off, as you've measured with in-ear mics. Yet you still perceive them to be lacking in 'slam'. So Helmholtz resonance frequency is not the explanation, and something else must be the cause. (Note I am specifically talking about bass slam/impact here, as other descriptions of 'slam' at higher frequencies are just too nebulous and likely conflating bass slam with distinct other perceptions).

As I said before, the actual cause is front volume seal. The greater the front volume is sealed by the pads and headphone enclosure, the greater the bass slam/impact. The same effect is found with IEMs and explains why balanced-armature models can be perceived as having less bass slam than dynamic models - simply because the former are less 'leakage tolerant', and so their bass extension decreases more readily with a front volume leakage. As Oratory says in that post, IEMs rely on pressure-chamber conditions and:
In a pressure chamber the SPL is constant below the resonance frequency, so you can inherently have a perfectly linear bass response down to 0 Hz.
Sound familiar?
Now let's look at something really interesting: Audeze's LCD-series. They have famously huge earpads that form an absolute airtight seal and are one of the reasons why the LCD-series has such a serious bass-punch - because they form an absolutely airtight front volume, which allows the driver to work in pressure-chamber conditions, where the sound pressure depends only on the excursion of the driver. This results in linear bass response down to theoretically 0 Hz. Yes, ZERO Hz. Now they are not completely airtight, but they are airtight enough for the bass to be linear to below 10 Hz.
Also re this: "why the LCD-series has such a serious bass-punch" - not in all cases
Note he doesn't say every single LCD model, and that comment was originally made 5 years ago, since which time I seem to remember Audeze have introduced some front volume venting to some models to reduce static pressure / suction when putting on / taking off the headphones. Every headphone model from every manufacturer will likely have a different degree of front volume seal due to various design constraints, but Oratory's point is clear: greater front volume seal => greater bass extension => greater perceived bass impact.
and I'd argue that the open-back Focals seem to still do even better at it too. Then you might say, "must be because of the extra mid-bass", but then find numerous counterexamples that have an elevated mid-bass that are poorly received for this quality.
Of course any rejections of the hypothesis that bass slam correlates with extension below 20 Hz would require comparisons to be done with everything else being equal i.e. all headphones EQed to the same target (e.g. Harman) down to 20 Hz. Also note I am not really talking about sub-20 Hz frequencies being more audible here (although sub-20 Hz content is more common than you'd think, even in genres you might not expect, and could be relevant to perceived bass slam). What I'm really talking about is measuring low frequency extension down to ~0 Hz as a proxy measurement for degree of seal and so how much and how long pressure is maintained in the front volume before leaking out. This measurement can be done with REW (which I believe you use for your tests) by setting the measurement sweep starting frequency below 20 Hz:
The Measurement Sweep signal is used by REW when measuring system response. It consists of a logarithmic sweep from half the start frequency to twice the end frequency (with an overall limit of half the interface sample rate) to provide accurate measurement over the selected range. If the start frequency is below 20Hz the signal begins with a linear sweep from DC to 10Hz, followed by a logarithmic sweep from there to the end frequency.
If you really want to correlate perceived bass slam to its actual physical cause, this is the most promising avenue to explore with your headphone measurements.
 
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Adaboy4z

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would you all agree the XS has better low end than the he400se without EQ? Im thinking about upgrading.
 

Resolve

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Of course any rejections of the hypothesis that bass slam correlates with extension below 20 Hz would require comparisons to be done with everything else being equal i.e. all headphones EQed to the same target (e.g. Harman) down to 20 Hz. Also note I am not really talking about sub-20 Hz frequencies being more audible here (although sub-20 Hz content is more common than you'd think, even in genres you might not expect, and could be relevant to perceived bass slam). What I'm really talking about is measuring low frequency extension down to ~0 Hz as a proxy measurement for degree of seal and so how much and how long pressure is maintained in the front volume before leaking out. This measurement can be done with REW (which I believe you use for your tests) by setting the measurement sweep starting frequency below 20 Hz:

I'm open to testing this - we do actually measure down to 10hz, because REW lops off the end portion in its visual representation, so some of that data exists for most of my measurements. At this point though we're not testing for stuff in the audible range, but rather... something else? Like a measure of pressure? I'm not totally convinced this tracks with the subjective experience of 'good' or 'bad' results, as with headphones that lack contrast, it actually sounds like information is missing to a certain degree. Moreover, I'm thinking of examples of headphones that do poorly here, and there are some that extend all the way down to 10hz in a linear fashion but also don't exhibit this quality. But I could be convinced otherwise.

In the case of the DCA Stealth, for you they do seal well and do not show the above bass drop-off, as you've measured with in-ear mics. Yet you still perceive them to be lacking in 'slam'.
The point of this was more to show what would happen in a case where someone had seal issues with say thick glasses or something like that. Again, my hypothesis was a matter of necessary and sufficient conditions, not a specific correlation of low Fs = good 'slam'. Merely that it could be a requirement, since only planars of the category 'low Fs' seem to exhibit this quality (with moving coil headphones it's more common to be 'good'), even though not all of them do. This also wouldn't be incongruent with your suggestion about measuring below 20hz.
 

GaryH

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I'm open to testing this - we do actually measure down to 10hz, because REW lops off the end portion in its visual representation, so some of that data exists for most of my measurements. At this point though we're not testing for stuff in the audible range, but rather... something else? Like a measure of pressure? I'm not totally convinced this tracks with the subjective experience of 'good' or 'bad' results, as with headphones that lack contrast, it actually sounds like information is missing to a certain degree. Moreover, I'm thinking of examples of headphones that do poorly here, and there are some that extend all the way down to 10hz in a linear fashion but also don't exhibit this quality. But I could be convinced otherwise.
I think the pertinent differences will be below 10 Hz in terms of front volume seal, so I reckon it's worth taking some measurements down to ~0 Hz with REW, as this will effectively measure static pressure in the front volume. It's possible degree of pressure on the ear drum may affect perceived sound in surprising ways, either psychosomatically, or physiologically, or both. There is actually some evidence for the latter with static pressure (see here and here).

The point of this was more to show what would happen in a case where someone had seal issues with say thick glasses or something like that. Again, my hypothesis was a matter of necessary and sufficient conditions, not a specific correlation of low Fs = good 'slam'. Merely that it could be a requirement, since only planars of the category 'low Fs' seem to exhibit this quality (with moving coil headphones it's more common to be 'good'), even though not all of them do. This also wouldn't be incongruent with your suggestion about measuring below 20hz.
As I've said, you're measuring the Helmholtz resonance frequency f_H of the system as defined in my previous post, not the resonance frequency Fs of the driver. And this Helmholtz resonance frequency changes when you introduce a seal breach (because it increases the total cross-sectional area of the front volume 'vents'). As an example, looking at your measurements of the DCA Stealth again, you say under your seal breach measurements "So you can see the resonance frequency is around 300hz". This is not the Fs of the driver. This is the Helmholtz resonance frequency, and it's clearly not constant at 300 Hz, it's in fact lower for a small leak (~250 Hz) compared to a large leak (over 400 Hz), just as the formula for f_H predicts. And it's lower still with no leak:
0b5d7708e0a6bd2a84dccccb50536fc825200f78.jpeg


And this is the only graph that matters, if it also seals this well on-head, which you've confirmed it does for you. Measurements with an artificially broken seal cannot be used to conclude things about bass perception with a good seal. A better analogy than my previous subwoofer one would be, measuring the sub in a garage with the door wide open (i.e. a leakage), and trying to correlate the very specific three-walled room mode resonances that show up in the frequency response with the bass response heard in the four-walled room with the garage door closed (no leakage), which are the actual conditions the sub will be used in. It just doesn't make sense. If you're trying to correlate subjective perceptions to objective measurements, you have to compare both under the same conditions. So if a headphone seals well on your head, only measurements with a good seal are relevant to your perceptions of it.
 
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Resolve

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And this is the only graph that matters, if it also seals this well on-head, which you've confirmed it does for you. Measurements with an artificially broken seal cannot be used to conclude things about bass perception with a good seal.
I disagree completely. It's critically important for those who wear glasses, and not just on this one but any closed-back headphone or where a headphone's bass response depends on a seal. I was able to replicate the leak result with thick frames. My normal glasses use thinner frames so it wasn't an issue with my usual wear. But the key thing here is that it pre-emptively explains reports - should there be any - of lacking bass level. But I'm happy to agree to disagree on this. IMO on-head response and driver Fs are more important than something like THD, except when it's bad haha.

To bring it back to the Edition XS, that's at least the tangible reason for showing it as well - and partially because it's a headphone that can have this type of leak going on even for people who don't wear glasses (as we saw with the Ananda in certain conditions as well). The only differences is that this may explain the inverse, when you see reports of elevated bass.

As I've said, you're measuring the Helmholtz resonance frequency f_H of the system as defined in my previous post, not the resonance frequency Fs of the driver.
I've learned that you can calculate the Helmholtz resonance for this but it's not necessarily the same as the free air driver Fs. But I'll let others who know more about this weigh in. Maybe something for @oratory1990 to comment on.
 

GaryH

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I disagree completely.
What exactly do you disagree with? This:
And this is the only graph that matters, if it also seals this well on-head, which you've confirmed it does for you.
Or this:
Measurements with an artificially broken seal cannot be used to conclude things about bass perception with a good seal.

If the former, I think you misunderstood me, maybe I wasn't clear there, I meant that measurements of a particular headphone with a good seal (including in-ear) are the only ones that matter in terms of correlating with the subjective perceptions (e.g. bass slam) of people who get a good seal with that particular headphone, as you do in the case of the Stealth. Broken seal measurements are of course useful for people who cannot get a good seal e.g. due to glasses as you say to give them a general idea of what they might expect the response to be for them.
 

Resolve

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What exactly do you disagree with? This:

Or this:


If the former, I think you misunderstood me, maybe I wasn't clear there, I meant that measurements of a particular headphone with a good seal are the only ones that matter in terms of correlating with the subjective perceptions (e.g. bass slam) of people who get a good seal with that particular headphone, as you do in the case of the Stealth. Broken seal measurements are of course useful for people who cannot get a good seal e.g. due to glasses as you say to give them a general idea of what they might expect the response to be for them.
Ah, yes I thought you meant in general. Yeah for this question, it's a bit different. I'm more just collecting data and looking at trends really. But I would say there are similar issues with the low frequency pressure hypothesis, in that there are enough counterexamples.
 

odyo

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There seem to be some misunderstandings around all this. The resonance you're observing with your broken-seal measurements is specifically the Helmholtz resonance within the front volume (dependent on not only the driver, but the headphone enclosure, pads and artificial ear canal), with the specific degree of broken seal you have artificially introduced. Oratory explains the Helmoltz resonance here (in the context of an IEM, but the same acoustic principles also apply to headphones):

With the key point at the end:

This is what you are effectively doing by introducing a broken seal - changing the (total) dimensions of the front volume 'vents'/'ports', and so the Helmholtz resonance frequency will change accordingly. In what way does it change?
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/m6vwgc/_/gr9flc6 In more detail, the Helmholtz resonance frequency f_H is defined as:
204f4f36021a31a2c1c6eb6be691e5d86faf034f

where v is the speed of sound, V_0 is the volume of the air cavity, and A and L_eq relate to the (total) dimensions of the 'neck' (vents) of the resonator (cross-sectional area and length respectively). When breaking the seal of a headphone on the rig, the total cross-sectional area A of the resonator vent increases (but L_eq doesn't). As the Helmholtz resonance frequency f_H is proportional to the square root of A, as you increase the area of the vent by increasing the amount of seal breach, the resonance frequency will increase, and vice versa as I stated in my previous post ("smaller vent => lower resonance frequency"). Your own measurements actually show this e.g. the DCA Stealth (green=small leak, orange=large leak):
6e9bdfae31e2a829257416e1a03ac28e8bff9995.png

Now, these measurements are not even relevant to how a headphone will sound if these seal breaches do not occur on the listener's head. It's like boring out a bigger port in a subwoofer, measuring the sub's frequency response and concluding that can explain subjective perceptions of its original sound before you made this 'mod'. In the case of the DCA Stealth, for you they do seal well and do not show the above bass drop-off, as you've measured with in-ear mics. Yet you still perceive them to be lacking in 'slam'. So Helmholtz resonance frequency is not the explanation, and something else must be the cause. (Note I am specifically talking about bass slam/impact here, as other descriptions of 'slam' at higher frequencies are just too nebulous and likely conflating bass slam with distinct other perceptions).

As I said before, the actual cause is front volume seal. The greater the front volume is sealed by the pads and headphone enclosure, the greater the bass slam/impact. The same effect is found with IEMs and explains why balanced-armature models can be perceived as having less bass slam than dynamic models - simply because the former are less 'leakage tolerant', and so their bass extension decreases more readily with a front volume leakage. As Oratory says in that post, IEMs rely on pressure-chamber conditions and:

Sound familiar?


Note he doesn't say every single LCD model, and that comment was originally made 5 years ago, since which time I seem to remember Audeze have introduced some front volume venting to some models to reduce static pressure / suction when putting on / taking off the headphones. Every headphone model from every manufacturer will likely have a different degree of front volume seal due to various design constraints, but Oratory's point is clear: greater front volume seal => greater bass extension => greater perceived bass impact.

Of course any rejections of the hypothesis that bass slam correlates with extension below 20 Hz would require comparisons to be done with everything else being equal i.e. all headphones EQed to the same target (e.g. Harman) down to 20 Hz. Also note I am not really talking about sub-20 Hz frequencies being more audible here (although sub-20 Hz content is more common than you'd think, even in genres you might not expect, and could be relevant to perceived bass slam). What I'm really talking about is measuring low frequency extension down to ~0 Hz as a proxy measurement for degree of seal and so how much and how long pressure is maintained in the front volume before leaking out. This measurement can be done with REW (which I believe you use for your tests) by setting the measurement sweep starting frequency below 20 Hz:

If you really want to correlate perceived bass slam to its actual physical cause, this is the most promising avenue to explore with your headphone measurements.
Thanks for sharing this. I wouldn't find Oratory's gems otherwise. Good post.
As for ''slam'' which i like to refer as ''contrast'' i'm not sure if it's really correlated with the bass extension. I haven't heard them but Focal's known to have better ''dynamics, slam'' than Audeze for example. Also planars seem to have better bass extension but dynamics have sharper and more impactful hits. I maybe wrong though. I haven't experienced lots of examples myself.
 

ngs428

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For those of you using the EQ APO/Peace, here are the EQ presets for the settings @Resolve provided.
 

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Resolve

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Thanks for sharing this. I wouldn't find Oratory's gems otherwise. Good post.
As for ''slam'' which i like to refer as ''contrast'' i'm not sure if it's really correlated with the bass extension. I haven't heard them but Focal's known to have better ''dynamics, slam'' than Audeze for example. Also planars seem to have better bass extension but dynamics have sharper and more impactful hits. I maybe wrong though. I haven't experienced lots of examples myself.

No you got it, that lines up with the reports I've seen most commonly for this stuff, and it's also how I experience them as well. There are some planars that are decent for this but generally that's not their strength. Now the task is to figure out what's actually responsible for this, whether FR or something else.
 
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mr.at

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@mr.at can you advise how to remove the ear cups from the band? I just bought the XS a couple days ago and find the band to be uncomfortable. I'd like to remove the cups and swap the band, but I'm not 100% sure if I just press them off or what. Also, would you happen to know what kind of band I could buy to replace the stock band? The suspension bands look interesting... they seem like they'd be more comfortable on my head but introduce more clamp on my ears.
Hi David - sorry was away for many days.

So this is going to be quite tricky, but may be possible. But you will have to assess this yourself with your own level of comfort here.

You first take off the earpads. Then you unscrew the 6 or so screws. Then you use something thin to flick out the plastic holding disc/rings - a nail can do that too, just slide it under and pull it out. These is a two part assembly, the inner disc may separate or may not, so no worries. Then you’ll see a foam lining on the outside resting on the driver sandwich assembly.

The outer screws holding the headband are screwed into some awfully stupid and real thing washer/nut hybrid kind of discs. I can understand this may have been because of space constraints but a pretty stupid decision, given that once loosened or unscrewed, it's pretty challenging to tighten it back again. Plus the screw head is some strange kind of odd crown - I didn't have the time to yet inquire what kind of tool I need to use to grip it without wearing it out. I also have/had a few plans to replace the headband. But I might just resort to a strap or a similar add-on. The headband could have been worse (that Sundara/Ananda band) which I hated so much I didn't even consider buying those because of it.

This one is much more solid and stable and at least swivels nicely, and for most heads, it's contoured a bit more sensibly too. Anyhow, make of it what you will - just be careful, and consider all these matters before making your decision. And definitely make sure you have the right tools to put this thing back together in stock form should your plan fail.
 

Ken Tajalli

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@mr.at can you advise how to remove the ear cups from the band? I just bought the XS a couple days ago and find the band to be uncomfortable. I'd like to remove the cups and swap the band, but I'm not 100% sure if I just press them off or what. Also, would you happen to know what kind of band I could buy to replace the stock band? The suspension bands look interesting... they seem like they'd be more comfortable on my head but introduce more clamp on my ears.
Take extreme care!
Hifiman puts superglue on the cup to yoke screw/nut assembly to keep it secure.
You are likely to snap the screw off trying to unscrew it.
Most people find the XS fit a bit weired to begin with and then get use it. Give it a while, if after a couple of weeks you feel the need to modify it, then proceed with care.
 
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