Hifiman Edition XS

[Ken Tajalli]

On paper, the 64mW is correct ofcourse, but you can not stick that paper to your ears and enjoy music!
That calculator is correct mathematically, but it relies on figures you give it:
- Sensitivity, the 92dB given figure is not accurate in practice. 92dB is fairly loud, anyone who has used the EDXS knows it won't go loud with a mere mW.
- Impedance of 18R is also not exact - I have measured mine it is more like 16.5 at driver terminals (where it matters).
Allowing for those, the value is near 150-200mW, allowing 6dB for peaks we get 600-800mW!
Now 110dB is loud! but in practice the 600-800mW seems to be on the nose - bear in mind if we go for 104dB+6dB peaks, we need 150-200mW (104dB is still pretty loud!).
So the claims that it benefits from few Watts of power are not correct, but why are people saying it??
As one can see with an eagle eye on the test results of this particular amp (common to many but the best) is that although it has the brute wattage to boast about, in reality its CLEANEST power is less than 20mW! That confuses some into thinking it needs more, more power!
Bigger amps have bigger clean power.
If you look at the ASR-beloved Topping DX3 Pro power curve, you can see it has clean power all the way to clipping point which is 570mW into 33R at high gain, at low gain it gets cleaner but has 120mW. Compare that to this amp.
Before anybody starts to chew at me, the Topping is a DAC/Amp, it means a lot of its distortion is from DAC side, the topping (Err. meant the Zen) is just an amp.
Topping:

Zen:

Once past 10mW or so, picture changes.

 

[cheapmessiah]

On paper, the 64mW is correct ofcourse, but you can not stick that paper to your ears and enjoy music!
That calculator is correct mathematically, but it relies on figures you give it:
- Sensitivity, the 92dB given figure is not accurate in practice. 92dB is fairly loud, anyone who has used the EDXS knows it won't go loud with a mere mW.
- Impedance of 18R is also not exact - I have measured mine it is more like 16.5 at driver terminals (where it matters).
Allowing for those, the value is near 150-200mW, allowing 6dB for peaks we get 600-800mW!
Now 110dB is loud! but in practice the 600-800mW seems to be on the nose - bear in mind if we go for 104dB+6dB peaks, we need 150-200mW (104dB is still pretty loud!).
So the claims that it benefits from few Watts of power are not correct, but why are people saying it??
As one can see with an eagle eye on the test results of this particular amp (common to many but the best) is that although it has the brute wattage to boast about, in reality its CLEANEST power is less than 20mW! That confuses some into thinking it needs more, more power!
Bigger amps have bigger clean power.
If you look at the ASR-beloved Topping DX3 Pro power curve, you can see it has clean power all the way to clipping point which is 570mW into 33R at high gain, at low gain it gets cleaner but has 120mW. Compare that to this amp.
Before anybody starts to chew at me, the Topping is a DAC/Amp, it means a lot of its distortion is from DAC side, the topping is just an amp.
Topping:

Zen:

Once past 10mW or so, picture changes.

While I do like the zen can as an amp, it irritates me that it is advertised 1,7-1.8w output power and it's not even close to that in reality.

I want to purchase the EXS anytime from here to BF, I sincerely hope the zen can has enough power and it doesn't force me to change amps.

 

[Makafuni]

On paper, the 64mW is correct ofcourse, but you can not stick that paper to your ears and enjoy music!
That calculator is correct mathematically, but it relies on figures you give it:
- Sensitivity, the 92dB given figure is not accurate in practice. 92dB is fairly loud, anyone who has used the EDXS knows it won't go loud with a mere mW.
- Impedance of 18R is also not exact - I have measured mine it is more like 16.5 at driver terminals (where it matters).
Allowing for those, the value is near 150-200mW, allowing 6dB for peaks we get 600-800mW!
Now 110dB is loud! but in practice the 600-800mW seems to be on the nose - bear in mind if we go for 104dB+6dB peaks, we need 150-200mW (104dB is still pretty loud!).
So the claims that it benefits from few Watts of power are not correct, but why are people saying it??
As one can see with an eagle eye on the test results of this particular amp (common to many but the best) is that although it has the brute wattage to boast about, in reality its CLEANEST power is less than 20mW! That confuses some into thinking it needs more, more power!
Bigger amps have bigger clean power.
If you look at the ASR-beloved Topping DX3 Pro power curve, you can see it has clean power all the way to clipping point which is 570mW into 33R at high gain, at low gain it gets cleaner but has 120mW. Compare that to this amp.
Before anybody starts to chew at me, the Topping is a DAC/Amp, it means a lot of its distortion is from DAC side, the topping is just an amp.
Topping:

Zen:

Once past 10mW or so, picture changes.

Thx, so more current equals less distortion before clipping?
And how can you compare these measurements when the one measures thd in % and the other in db? I can see the graph and that it doesn't raise distortion before clipping.I just dont get why use different measures when measuring the same thing?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Thx, so more current equals less distortion before clipping?

???

And how can you compare these measurements when the one measures thd in % and the other in db? I can see the graph and that it doesn't raise distortion before clipping.I just dont get why use different measures when measuring the same thing?

0.001 is about -60dB so in the face of it the topping (just an example ) has higher total distortion compared to Zen, hence my "don't chew at me" clause. Some of that distortion (major part) is due to the inbuilt DAC section, If I was to guess, I would say the amp section of topping is at -95/-100dB mark at almost full power.
(Edit: my mistake! it is 0.001 percent, that would factor it by 100! 0.001 percent is -100dB)
The curves tell you how the device is behaving nearing clipping point.
On Topping it goes smoothly down till it clips, on Zen it goes smooyhlu down to about 10mW and then starts to rise, it is still good to 150mW, but past that ....

 

[Phoney]

Any reason to keep my Arya v2 over this one? Are they very similar? I'm considering selling the Arya.

 

[cheapmessiah]

Any reason to keep my Arya v2 over this one?

Unless you can get 100% of your money back on those aryas, or you need the money difference from downgrading to invest somewhere else, no reason to change, you can wait untill the EXS goes down in price like sundara did, or some sales like BF happen if you absolutley want the EXS, but realisticly speaking, your aryas are the superior headphone, even if the performance distance is relatively small for the price difference.

 

[Phoney]

Unless you can get 100% of your money back on those aryas, or you need the money difference from downgrading to invest somewhere else, no reason to change, you can wait untill the EXS goes down in price like sundara did, or some sales like BF happen if you absolutley want the EXS, but realisticly speaking, your aryas are the superior headphone, even if the performance distance is relatively small for the price difference.

Well, I can earn around $700 dollars from swapping. If they are pretty much identical apart from the headband thing, then I'd be all over those $700 dollars.

 

[cheapmessiah]

Well, I can earn around $700 dollars from swapping. If they are pretty much identical apart from the headband thing, then I'd be all over those $700 dollars.

Then theres your answer, with aryas you might be able to hear the difference between dacs and cables tho ;-)

 

[Jimbob54]

???

0.001 is about -60dB so in the face of it the topping (just an example ) has higher total distortion compared to Zen, hence my "don't chew at me" clause. Some of that distortion (major part) is due to the inbuilt DAC section, If I was to guess, I would say the amp section of topping is at -95/-100dB mark at almost full power.
(Edit: my mistake! it is 0.001 percent, that would factor it by 100! 0.001 percent is -100dB)
The curves tell you how the device is behaving nearing clipping point.
On Topping it goes smoothly down till it clips, on Zen it goes smooyhlu down to about 10mW and then starts to rise, it is still good to 150mW, but past that ....

Glad you edited that - handy calculator http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm

 

[Χ Ξ Σ]

Well, I can earn around $700 dollars from swapping. If they are pretty much identical apart from the headband thing, then I'd be all over those $700 dollars.

The current aftermarket value for Arya v2 is around 900 as the V3 is out. Forget about the sound, I would swap it before it goes down even further.

 

[Tobi]

Any reason to keep my Arya v2 over this one? Are they very similar? I'm considering selling the Arya.

I don't own the Arya so I can't compare them sound wise, but in my opinion the headband structure of the Edition XS is really not the best, it's just very loose and moves around really easily. I have a small to medium size head.

Don't get me wrong, it's not uncomfortable but just a little more clamp force would have been way better...
I also own the Sundara and that fits my head a lot better, I guess the Arya should be equal or even better than the Sundara when it comes to comfort/ fit.
So yeah, in that regard I'm a little disappointed with the XS.
If you have a large head the XS may fit you pretty well though, at least that's what I heard from the big headed people so far.

 

[Makafuni]

I have nicer RCA cables and 4.4mm bal cables though i doubt it makes a difference.

Not just channel crosstalk, despite having no cable connected to 3.5mm input of the amp, i can hear the music from 3.5mm input mode. It leaks from other inputs to the 3.5mm input. I can pretty much use this amp with 3.5mm input without cable lol.

It's a subjective territory but i hear good soundstage with this amp. The soundstage difference is unmistakably huge compared to my smartphone but it's probably the smartphone's problem. I don't have another dac or amp to compare right now. But yeah crosstalk does what you say.



You can test it. Remove the cable from the right cup and then go play a music with only right channel. Youtube have it.

and see if you can hear the music from left earcup.
It's about -40db in the treble i guess which may have a subtle perceptible effect on music.

Not going too far off topic, i'm curious if you can hear it with the XS. I can only test it with iems right now which isn't ideal and my XS is still on the way.

So yeah after doing this test I can confirm crosstalk. But only audible at my peak listening volume but still very subtle. Different story with the 3d button. But that's deliberate crossfeed. They say they achieve this effect analogue, so maybe this design causes some of that slightly elevated crosstalk in amirs measurements.

 

[Makafuni]

While I do like the zen can as an amp, it irritates me that it is advertised 1,7-1.8w output power and it's not even close to that in reality.

I want to purchase the EXS anytime from here to BF, I sincerely hope the zen can has enough power and it doesn't force me to change amps.

I have this setup (zen stack+EDXS) and I think when I'll get my balanced cable I'll be quite happy and satisfied for a while! I already am, just that I know the Can sounds quite a bit better in BAL.
And then down the line when I have the money to spend I'll probably get an amp upgrade as I believe the XS will scale well with better equipment and more power.

They are really a great HP!

 

[Phoney]

Im thinking of trying this one against Ananda using the same EQ target.. Anyone that would care to help? I want the frequency response to be pretty much equal after EQ, preferrebly harman ish. I guess using oratory EQ with Ananda will work, but he didn't make one for XS yet.

 

[Makafuni]

Im thinking of trying this one against Ananda using the same EQ target.. Anyone that would care to help? I want the frequency response to be pretty much equal after EQ, preferrebly harman ish. I guess using oratory EQ with Ananda will work, but he didn't make one for XS yet.

Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life

www.dropbox.com

 

[Phoney]

Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life

www.dropbox.com

Thanks! I didn't find the XS in the list. I guess the list is not updated yet.

 

[Makafuni]

Thanks! I didn't find the XS in the list. I guess the list is not updated yet.

The upper mid and treble settings works pretty good removing any shout and sibiliance. (I have the 3k dip at 3350 instead and the 4750 at 5k. But the 4+db 1750hz is way off. I have a subtle +1-2db at 1350hz and no dip at 1k like this one. The bass is also no good imo. A 3db peak at 30ish db does the job. The 300hz dip I also leave out as I think it gives some welcoming warmth and body with the slight elevation.

 

[odyo]

I did a balance test yesterday and couldn't hear bleeding but maybe it was not loud enough. I'll test it with the method you described and see if I can hear anything with the EDXS.

So maybe this whole Zen Stack discussion has gone a little off topic, but it mainly comes down to whether this amp is powerfull enough to run the EDXS. So far the only thing I can conclude is that despite being current starved it should be sufficient to drive the EDXS.
This is relevant for all owners of the EDXS wondering what kind of power this headphone needs.

Still haven't got any actual power requirement figures for the EDXS besides that it needs a lot of current with the power delivery.
So what would be a min. power requirement for this HP to be run to it's full potential from only a power perspective?

600mW would be safe i'd say. 120db, lots of headroom.

Im thinking of trying this one against Ananda using the same EQ target.. Anyone that would care to help? I want the frequency response to be pretty much equal after EQ, preferrebly harman ish. I guess using oratory EQ with Ananda will work, but he didn't make one for XS yet.

Most Hifiman's have near identical FR but they sound quite a bit different lol. Do you have both ? What are your opinions stock ? Curious about EQ'ed comparison too. I will compare when i get mine but it will not be side by side comparison. I know Ananda well though. I used it a lot.

 

[Phoney]

600mW would be safe i'd say. 120db, lots of headroom.

Most Hifiman's have near identical FR but they sound quite a bit different lol. Do you have both ? What are your opinions stock ? Curious about EQ'ed comparison too. I will compare when i get mine but it will not be side by side comparison. I know Ananda well though. I used it a lot.

I have Arya v2 but I'm thinking of swapping them for either Ananda or XS, if the difference is very minor. I allways use EQ so I don't care about the stock differences tbh. I will just test them briefly at an audio store.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Im thinking of trying this one against Ananda using the same EQ target.. Anyone that would care to help? I want the frequency response to be pretty much equal after EQ, preferrebly harman ish. I guess using oratory EQ with Ananda will work, but he didn't make one for XS yet.

I suggest you listen to it, for a week with no EQ!
If you can last that long, make sure it is the only headphone you listen to during the same week.
Allow your ears and brain to adjust.
If after that you feel the need, then start gentle EQ , a tiny amount at a time.
Mr . Harman can EQ to his curves desires till the cows come home .
Don't let some arbitrary graph somewhere dictate to you, what's right!
Use your own ears.