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Hifiman Edition XS

Makafuni

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As far as i understand, it's because unity gain is 4V instead of 2V in balanced so you get different loudness but if you push the max loudness before clipping you will see SE will go louder before clip.

index.php

index.php


You can see here that it clips at 12db gain in SE out but it clips at 6db gain in BAL out.


This dac amp combo look quite nice on paper. Let's hope Amir review it. Asgard 3 is still in stock afaik.

I don't know if L50 is really analytical. Try volume matching when comparing outputs and see if soundstage, bass etc really changes or not. At low volumes, i don't hear any difference between weak zen dac and powerful zen can. At high volumes, difference isn't drastic. Lots psychological factors at play when it comes to dacs and amps.
"As far as i understand, it's because unity gain is 4V instead of 2V in balanced so you get different loudness but if you push the max loudness before clipping you will see SE will go louder before clip."

Not sure what you mean, but if you use the 4.4 mm interconnect between dac and amp it gets 4v. with RCA in variable on the dac it get 3.2v i think. in fixed it gets around 2v. Is this what you are referring to? It's louder in variable than fixed because of this which makes sense.
But if I run it with RCA in and BAL out, the balanced is still louder than SE. I dont have the 4.4 interconnect cable.

You can see here that it clips at 12db gain in SE out but it clips at 6db gain in BAL out.

Is this with volume all turned up? What does the 6 after 12db and 5 after 6db stand for?
And I still don't get why the BAL out gets less efficient than SE with low impedance cans. With higher ohm HP it's a lot more efficient in BAL.

Thx for the amp suggestions. I live in DK and schit are all out of stock in EU and has been for a while now.
I'm getting a balance HP cable soon and replacing the stock RCA. I have two stock IFI RCA's and just cut the one open to see whats inside. I don't know much(anything) about cables but not much material here:





IMG_0519.jpg
 

KenTajalli

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And I still don't get why the BAL out gets less efficient than SE with low impedance cans. With higher ohm HP it's a lot more efficient in BAL.
The amps output impedance is high, that's why!
It can not be anything else.
Perhaps this can explain.
 

Makafuni

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The amps output impedance is high, that's why!
It can not be anything else.
Perhaps this can explain.
It's below 2 ohms.. Shouldn't make that much of a difference?
 

KenTajalli

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Makafuni

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KenTajalli

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Because it says so in the specs. SE >1ohm BAL >2 ohm
Spec says 15V into 600R, which I am going to assume is max voltage out, it then drops to 11V at 64R !
If my maths is correct, output impedance on balanced out is about 13 Ohm, not 2.
Similarly on SE, output impedance is about 1.5 Ohm not 1, but not far.
Experts, correct me.
 

Makafuni

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Spec says 15V into 600R, which I am going to assume is max voltage out, it then drops to 11V at 64R !
If my maths is correct, output impedance on balanced out is about 13 Ohm, not 2.
Similarly on SE, output impedance is about 1.5 Ohm not 1, but not far.
Experts, correct me.
Output Impedance (HP)BAL
SE
<2 Ohms
<1 Ohm
 

Makafuni

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KenTajalli

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Makafuni

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Makafuni

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And are you implying there will be impedance issues with the EDXS+Zen can in BAL?
 

Jimbob54

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Spec says 15V into 600R, which I am going to assume is max voltage out, it then drops to 11V at 64R !
If my maths is correct, output impedance on balanced out is about 13 Ohm, not 2.
Similarly on SE, output impedance is about 1.5 Ohm not 1, but not far.
Experts, correct me.
I'd like to see your maths.
 

KenTajalli

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Jimbob54

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Is it wrong?
Or are you hoping to find something wrong to beat me with? ;)
I'm intrigued how you worked out output impedance. Barring some odd and unexpected circuitry I would have thought it should be roughly double the single ended
 

KenTajalli

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I'm intrigued how you worked out output impedance. Barring some odd and unexpected circuitry I would have thought it should be roughly double the single ended
If output impedance is zero, then balanced should give twice the voltage and four times the power!
But if output impedance is more than zero, then it cuts into that.
There is also the PSU and its current limitation, and that will add to total output impedance as it approaches its limitation.
I used voltage drops going from 600R to 64R for balanced output (ignoring claimed power ), and same for SE.
However since in SE PSU is not pushed as much, output impedance improves.
In balanced mode, PSU limitation is approached, so combined output impedance would suffer.
BTW, I did it in my head, hence the approximate values.
 

raistlin65

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Wouldn't it be easy to measure? So we can't trust anything they claim in the specs?

Why don't you and @KenTajalli go discuss this in the Zen Can review thread? You can start by reading the review. Where Amir typically has an output impedance measurement for headphone amps (although I have not read the review)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ifi-zen-can-review-headphone-amp.25224/

Not only are you more likely to find someone that knows the answer, but that's better than taking this thread far off topic.
 

Jimbob54

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Why don't you and @KenTajalli go discuss this in the Zen Can review thread? You can start by reading the review. Where Amir typically has an output impedance measurement for headphone amps (although I have not read the review)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ifi-zen-can-review-headphone-amp.25224/

Not only are you more likely to find someone that knows the answer, but that's better than taking this thread far off topic.
(sadly on that review I dont think he does give it, but yes, it's not relevant in this thread)
 

raistlin65

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(sadly on that review I dont think he does give it, but yes, it's not relevant in this thread)
Oh, well. I know he skips such things occassionally.

Still helpful in terms of finding people who might know. And it's good when such questions and answers are in the review thread, because it's the first place someone else goes to look for the answer to the same question.
 

odyo

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"As far as i understand, it's because unity gain is 4V instead of 2V in balanced so you get different loudness but if you push the max loudness before clipping you will see SE will go louder before clip."

Not sure what you mean, but if you use the 4.4 mm interconnect between dac and amp it gets 4v. with RCA in variable on the dac it get 3.2v i think. in fixed it gets around 2v. Is this what you are referring to? It's louder in variable than fixed because of this which makes sense.
But if I run it with RCA in and BAL out, the balanced is still louder than SE. I dont have the 4.4 interconnect cable.

You can see here that it clips at 12db gain in SE out but it clips at 6db gain in BAL out.

Is this with volume all turned up? What does the 6 after 12db and 5 after 6db stand for?
And I still don't get why the BAL out gets less efficient than SE with low impedance cans. With higher ohm HP it's a lot more efficient in BAL.

Thx for the amp suggestions. I live in DK and schit are all out of stock in EU and has been for a while now.
I'm getting a balance HP cable soon and replacing the stock RCA. I have two stock IFI RCA's and just cut the one open to see whats inside. I don't know much(anything) about cables but not much material here:





View attachment 197138
Amir used RCA connection but BAL out is still 4V so that's why it's louder. That 5 and 6 in the graph is irrelevant. It's just the order of the measured outputs.
What i mean is: With Edition XS, it will get louder with SE out. You will be able to use more gain and higher volume knob position. With BAL out you will see clipping earlier because power will run out.
The amps output impedance is high, that's why!
It can not be anything else.
Perhaps this can explain.
It's maybe related to power supply, protection or some other design limitation/trade off. Though i don't understand much of this electric stuff. Output impedance in the spec sheet is very low.
 
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