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Hifiman Ananda Review (headphone)

DanTheMan

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See now to me, these measurements don’t look horrible... they actually look about as well as I’d expect without a good seal. Perhaps even better. Am I missing something?
 

Robbo99999

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Is distortion measured by an amp on high gain or low gain and does that even make a difference?
That's a good question, and Amir might be the one that would have to answer how his own setup is organised from that point of view. But High Gain on a headphone amp is normally including additional amplification on top of the original signal from the DAC, like the High Gain button might be x1.5 or x2 power amplification, whereas Low Gain is normally Unity Gain when the headphone amp is at max volume on the volume dial, meaning that the headphone amp is normally just modulating the volume downwards when on Low Gain if running below "Number 10" on the volume dial. So technically you're likely to get best performance running on Low Gain if the volume is loud enough.
 

ayane

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A bit late, but I'm really grateful for these headphone measurements. Many reviewers speak pleasant words about these headphones but can't explain the flaws as precisely and concisely as the data does - a picture really speaks a thousand words in this case. Terrible group delay and mediocre distortion performance (with poor power handling) means the acoustic design needs work, and/or the driver has some problems, possibly defects. Even if this is just a bad sample, it says something about quality control.

Thank you Amir, for measuring these!
 

Fernando

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Here's my thoughts on how to do this:
1. The measurement fixtures would have to match from source to source.
Amir used GRAS 45CA-10 since the beginning.
Oratory1990, as far I know, also uses GRAS 45CA-10, so that's good.
But he used different fixtures in the past, so it wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison.
For the Hifiman Ananda, he used "GRAS 43AC/43AG" fixture. (source)

2. For best results, you'll need the raw frequency vs dbSPL for both sources.
Amir attaches his measurements with each review, so that's perfect.
Oratory1990 doesnt include his raw measurements. (example)
So you would have to find this data elsewhere...Jaakko includes this data in his CSV file. (source)
If you can't find the data, you would have to use the 'WebPlotDigitizer' to extract the frequency and dbSPL data, and save it to excel.

Then import both into REW and then simply show both on the same screenshot (or compare each individually and make it a gif).
Is this worth doing? You tell me.
Perhaps another member has tried this already?

It would have cost you less to do it than to write the explanation!!
:)

As I stated in that post, the LCD2F would have been a more technical capable headphone if you're ok with EQ (just look at the LCD-X review, which has the same driver arrangement minus the impedance).

Take the survey again!
 
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Robbo99999

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Merkurio

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What is this? Is this audible or do we hear those identically? Can I measure these capabilities? Or is it again just Head-Fi speach "for believers only"?

What exactly don't you understand or leads you to confuse with the Head-Fi speech?

LCD-X measurements show far lower distortion and no rolled-off bass, which leans to a more technical capable design (besides the horrific frequency response, which greatly improves with the latest pad update).

LCD2F shares the exactly same driver arrangement according to official Audeze specs, being the lower impedance the only difference in LCD-X's favor, hence my comment.

No way, LCD-X is a disaster! https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-x-over-ear-open-back-headphone-review.16777/

It's got an unfixable by EQ massive and sharp dip in the treble, in fact the whole of the treble is just one rocky ride.

In stock form yes, they're atrocious FR-wise (although with the last revision with change in the pads it appears to improve a lot).

However, with EQ the difference doesn't seem unfixable as you said, at least in Amir subjective impressions:

Man, this headphone was producing exemplary bass performance and good tonality. I am talking about my usual ear lobes resonating. I then looked at the volume control and there was more room to go so I went for it! For just 1 second that I could tolerate it, it felt like I had a subwoofer in my head!!! :D If our hearing did not get damaged doing this, I would listen to these headphones this way all day long. :) It was uncanny how there was no distortion from either the amp or the headphone.

And as far as I concerned, @Rayman30 said that he had no problem using EQ, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Robbo99999

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What exactly you don't understand or leads you to confuse with the Head-Fi speech?

LCD-X measurements show far lower distortion and no rolled-off bass, which leans to a more technical capable design (besides the horrific frequency response, which greatly improves with the latest pad update).

LCD2F shares the exactly same driver arrangement according to official Audeze specs, being the lower impedance the only difference in LCD-X's favor, hence my comment.



In stock form yes, they're atrocious FR-wise (although with the last revision with change in the pads it appears to improve a lot).

However, with EQ the difference doesn't seem unfixable as you said, at least in Amir subjective impressions:



And as far as I concerned, @Rayman30 said that he had no problem using EQ, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just can't justify or trust a frequency response that is soooo jagged and requires sooooo much boost EQ. I can't equate that to technically capable or accurate....even after EQ it won't be quite there.
 

MayaTlab

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See now to me, these measurements don’t look horrible... they actually look about as well as I’d expect without a good seal. Perhaps even better. Am I missing something?

If you were to smooth out a lot the measured FR curve then it wouldn't look too bad (although the deviation between 1000 and 2500hz or so would remain quite significant).

But all the wiggles, peaks and dips you see, do matter. Even though they should all be interpreted carefully with a hefty pinch of salt, particularly starting from 1000hz and all the more so above around 5000hz where your own anatomy increasingly has an important impact on the FR curve at your own eardrum. And below 250-300hz or so, where seal becomes an issue (cf link to Rtings' measurements provided above).

A good contrast would be the HD650 : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sennheiser-hd650-review-headphone.18774/
You can see that in the range where we can be quite confident that the measurements are the most representative of what you'll hear (somewhere between 250hz and 1000-2000hz, ie where sealing issues, preferences variations, or anatomical variations are the least important, and where measurements are the most accurate), its FR curve is very smooth and exhibits very few problem areas, all the while hugging the target reasonably well. The Ananda exhibits noticeable issues in that range already. We're not off to a good start IMO.
 

solderdude

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Is distortion measured by an amp on high gain or low gain and does that even make a difference?

Amp distortion is completely irrelevant here. It is magnitudes lower than that of the headphone.

See now to me, these measurements don’t look horrible... they actually look about as well as I’d expect without a good seal. Perhaps even better. Am I missing something?

Nope is an excellent measuring and sounding headphone. Needs a bit of EQ... just like all other headphones can be improved by this.
Bass on the LCD2 can be more impressive.
I don't understand the worrying about distortion. There is something like audibility thresholds. Not everyone will blast so loud it becomes an audible issue.

Was it mentioned yet that the Ananda works fine directly from a phone ?
 

Merkurio

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I just can't justify or trust a frequency response that is soooo jagged and requires sooooo much boost EQ. I can't equate that to technically capable or accurate....even after EQ it won't be quite there.

Fair enough, but you can fix the FR disaster with no audible distortion in the LCD-X, whereas the Ananda (at least this particular unit) are in a borderline situation without EQ, distortion-wise.

Both can be valid options IMO, depending what're you looking for.
 

charleski

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Would be easier if amir showed excess group delay if we wanna check for minimum phase. Incidentally here is such a graph for the ananda . Measurement done with a hms ii.3 (not by me)
The analysis on the REW pages seems to be based on the work of Blauert and Laws (1978), which provides a good rundown of the theoretical background. They measured the all-pass (i.e. not minimum-phase) delay of a couple of headphones on a person's head* and found definite components, though the delay is <0.5msec. They went on to test audibility and found that these all lay below the threshold and thus weren't worth worrying about.

BlauertLaws78Headphones.PNG

*I have to wonder what "pickup point: ear drum" means, though, since it implies they located a microphone deep in the ear canal.
 

Azathoth

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My brain's DSP is telling me this headphone is great! I am in the process of saving up for this beast. To me these headphones sounded clear and spacious, and I have tried these headphones many times, from demo units to my friend's pair.
 

Lbstyling

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I'm starting to form the hypothesis, that group delay (as well as frequency response; particularly around 8 kHz and possibly around 2 kHz - aka, the Blauert bands) is responsible for much of the out-of-head soundstage (or is it instrument separation? I dare not answer that question yet) phenomenon. To wit, compare the Focal Celestee with the Utopia, Ananda and HD800S:

View attachment 122858 Celestee: "soundstage is mostly whacked in the middle of your head"

View attachment 122859 Utopia: "You get a halo of sound about 25 to 30% outside of your head with very nice instrument separation and excellent clarity."

View attachment 122857 Ananda: 'You do get nice sensation of "speakers away from your ear"'

View attachment 122860 HD800S: "What was remarkable and uncanny was separation of instruments."

I've played around with increasing and decreasing the 8 kHz peak^1 of the HD800 (not S), and have noticed, that the soundstage collapses when the peak is decreased; and increases when the peak is increased. I've also tried putting this peak on other headphones, with mixed results: though the soundstage might increase, an audible resonance peak is then detected. Clearly, frequency response alone isn't responsible for soundstage. I'm now suspecting, that the cause is reflections, as evidenced by group delay over specific frequency ranges. This also explains why fiddling with frequency response alters soundstage: as response changes, so does reflection intensity.

I'd love to further test this hypothesis with iems: I suspect, that they have no group delay at all, indicating no reflections, indicating a lack of soundstage. I'd also like to test whether or not simulating reflections and group delay, say by increasing reverb over specific ranges, increases soundstage. I tried this once, but the plugin I used was insufficiently precise. I wonder if the famed Smyth device does something like this....

Thoughts and opinions? I wish Axel Grell or other headphone designers were members of this forum: surely they have the knowledge we seek!

^1: Or is it a peak? If the frequency response is flat, but there are a tonne of reflections, would the frequency response curve show a peak where none exists? In such a case, the frequency response curve is not just measuring frequency response - but also reflections. Perhaps a free-field measurement could answer this question.

I have thought this may be the case for a while. Coming from DIY speaker design, it was my first thought.
Experienced members in the world of headphones diss-agree on this thought....but as time goes on.........
 

Jimbob54

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Before my purchase, I ran a poll asking if I should get an LCD-2F or Ananda. Well, the Ananda won the polling. So.. should I sell these and try the LCD-2F then?

I am going to go broke trying to find a good set lol
Do you like the Ananda? And how do you know you'd like the lcd better?
 

Svperstar

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I'd love to see the Hifiman Arya reviewed. Ever since I got them they are pretty much all I listen too besides periodically getting on my LCD2 .The LCD2 & Arya are kind of opposites.
 

paolomo

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I'm starting to form the hypothesis, that group delay (as well as frequency response; particularly around 8 kHz and possibly around 2 kHz - aka, the Blauert bands) is responsible for much of the out-of-head soundstage (or is it instrument separation? I dare not answer that question yet) phenomenon. To wit, compare the Focal Celestee with the Utopia, Ananda and HD800S:

View attachment 122858 Celestee: "soundstage is mostly whacked in the middle of your head"

View attachment 122859 Utopia: "You get a halo of sound about 25 to 30% outside of your head with very nice instrument separation and excellent clarity."

View attachment 122857 Ananda: 'You do get nice sensation of "speakers away from your ear"'

View attachment 122860 HD800S: "What was remarkable and uncanny was separation of instruments."
Very interesting. We see the same in the DT990 too, or am I confusing things?
 

Veri

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I'd love to see the Hifiman Arya reviewed. Ever since I got them they are pretty much all I listen too besides periodically getting on my LCD2 .The LCD2 & Arya are kind of opposites.
Honestly, the treble/brightness problems are probably as much if not more of an issue on the Arya. Perhaps it'll have better group delay and construction quality though, the swivelling cups surely help a bit with comfort.
 
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So again, cut out the attitude and learn what we are doing here. I have measured probably 40 headphones now. Arguments like yours were made early on but the process has proven to be highly effective if you understand the scope and capabilities of headphone measurements as I have explained to you. There is a lot of skill going into what is being measured, and interpreting them. Don't shoot from the hip with random statements like that.

I have been to the driving range and hit thousands of golf balls. I must be a pro golfer then. Unless I hit all those balls with the wrong technique. Then those thousands of shots mean nothing except I got a good workout.

The amount of headphones measured does not matter if the process is wrong. You have people in these comments with much more experience than you with headphone measurements telling you that your measurements were incorrect and yet you put your head in the sand and go back to your classic rubber band throwaway comment that you made on the Diana review as well.

It should be actively encouraged to get feedback from people doing the same thing so that you can all work to have a closer set of standards, not stubbornly fight the tide so you can form your own narratives for reviews. That verges away from science & objective data.
 
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