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HiFi News review the Kii Three loudspeaker

Dialectic

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@svart-hvittEDIT: I've been trying to find a good example of this online. Unfortunately the best I can do is a speaker measured at 5° increments (it's the Genelec 8351A measured by 3D3A Labs at Princeton). It's clear though that you see plenty of 1 or 2dB peaks and dips from -5° to 0° to +5°.

Look at that on-axis c. 2dB dip @ 6KHz. They've apparently decided to have it there because at -5° and +5° the tweeter is once again flat. If the designer had chosen to bump up that 6KHz dip to flatten it, the outcome would be a less neutral speaker, even though it would now have less linear on-axis response on paper.

Ditto the more broadband on-axis dip throughout most of the top octave. There may be other variations not captured by the 5° measurement increment chosen by 3D3A.

View attachment 14944

The D&D 8C will be measured there in the coming months.
 
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Purité Audio

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andreasmaaan

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Interestingly, Stereophile's measurements of the Kii Three look a little different from Hifi News' measurements. Stereophile shows a 2dB downward slope in the treble (again, the most likely cause is measurement error or differing mic position, mic distance, or SPLs).

It also seems to show that Kii have preferred a flat on-axis measurement to a flat "listening window" response (Harman's term) like the one I suggested was preferable in post #58. This is apparent in the off-axis 3-6dB peak around 10KHz. I don't think this will be very audible given its narrow bandwidth and the fact that it's at such a high frequency, but it may indicate that Kii opted for a flat on-paper response at the (very slight) expense of real-world neutrality.

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JJB70

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At the price these sell for there really shouldn't be any argument about performance (however I think we all know that in high end audio price is no indicator of whether equipment is any good).
 

tomeh

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Thanks for the interesting observations on these. Asking a dealer or an "insider" to speak in meaningful, tangible, supportable terms is like asking them to speak another language so I was looking for observations from anyone who has actually heard these themselves or better yet tried some measurements themselves. I am interested because I have evolved to a playback "system" in my studio by trying to take as much of the room out of it without leaving it sounding like a test chamber. I'm using Newform Research, Stacked Line source monitors (think line array) with 45" of ribbon tweeters, four subwoofers ( arranged for cardioid pattern), active crossovers with time alignment (verified measurements at sweet spot only) and "shotgun" arranged subs with time delays below 170 hz. This company appears to be trying a similar method, with more upper bass steering, possibly lower distortion in the bass range and now with another layer of control if the BXT is added. But DOES IT WORK? Who has really heard it and A_B it in the same room as a "known" speaker?? Look up Axiom speakers here in Canada who now seemed to be doing the same??
 

andreasmaaan

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See this Axiom Link. Doing the same thing?? https://www.axiomaudio.com/omnidirectional-speaker

These are actually very different from the Kii Threes.

These Axiom speakers are bipoles, meaning that they radiate sound both forward and to the rear. The do this by having both front-firing and rear-firing drivers,

The Kiis, on the other hand, use rear-facing drivers to prevent any sound from the front-firing drivers from radiating to the sides and rear. Quite the opposite in many ways.

Or to put this another way, the Kiis project all their sound forwards, with tightly controlled directivity at all frequencies (except the low bass).

The Axioms are more or less omnidirectional (that's a slight oversimplification but the basic gist of what they do).

The only real similarity is that both speakers are active designs using DSP crossovers.
 

tomeh

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Thanks for the quick reply. Yes I know what the advertise, Omni, but I truly wonder if it is that simple. Lot's have gone that direction before (and where are they now?). KII Audio appear to be "going my way?" but I still haven't heard them. let alone measured them INSITU. And it's hard to find "non-invested" people who have heard them. Cheers, Tom eh
 

andreasmaaan

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Thanks for the quick reply. Yes I know what the advertise, Omni, but I truly wonder if it is that simple. Lot's have gone that direction before (and where are they now?). KII Audio appear to be "going my way?" but I still haven't heard them. let alone measured them INSITU. And it's hard to find "non-invested" people who have heard them. Cheers, Tom eh

No worries :)

No speaker is truly omni, and those Axioms are no exception.

Basically, what they do is project sound forwards and rearwards. At low and mid frequencies, the soundwaves will tend to wrap around the speakers and create close to an omni effect. At higher frequencies, the pattern will be more bipolar, with not as much high frequency sound projecting upward or to the sides.
 

tomeh

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As you probably read from my first post, I have evolved through many experiments, measurements and listening tests to "steering" as much lower midrange to lowest bass as possible in my studio. Next question is "what is the trade-off?" between steering and distortion if any. The KII Three's with BXT's should be my playback system on steroids??
 

andreasmaaan

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As you probably read from my first post, I have evolved through many experiments, measurements and listening tests to "steering" as much lower midrange to lowest bass as possible in my studio. Next question is "what is the trade-off?" between steering and distortion if any. The KII Three's with BXT's should be my playback system on steroids??

Ah, actually no, I just saw your post asking about the Axiom speakers. Sounds like an interesting system you have.

By "steering", do you mean using a cardioid arrangement in the way that the Kiis do?

If so, in terms of distortion, there should be no increase in distortion on-axis as a result of doing this. However, there will be less sound power released into the room for the same driver displacement, so for the same in-room SPL you theoretically end up with higher distortion, all else being equal.

The Kiis use quite sophisticated feedback in the Threes though, which should mean that distortion is nevertheless kept very low (I haven't seen measurements, however).

Or perhaps I've misunderstood your question?
 

tomeh

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Yes, Cardiod is what I'm doing.

The Newform Linsource's are esentially a line array, 7" wide, 7' 6" high and the ribbon tweeters are 45" high, 1/8" wide so I have the benefit of those polar patterns working for me at higher frequencies (mid-hi xover at 1k7 hz so 7" width isn't destructive)

And Yes and yes. ha ha.
Yes, I need more energy in total to make up for the "steering cancellation energy" lost and the on axis result.
Yes, That's why I also divide the duties up between four sub's instead of two to reduce max displacement and therefore no movement in areas of higher distortion.
It is appearing that this combination of twice the power, twice the subs has kept me at relatively normal distortion levels but this is by listening, I still have to measure to verify this. And thus another question about KII design?

So it appears we are on the same wavelength (sorry I love bad puns).

Cheers,

Tom eh
 

andreasmaaan

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Yes, Cardiod is what I'm doing.

The Newform Linsource's are esentially a line array, 7" wide, 7' 6" high and the ribbon tweeters are 45" high, 1/8" wide so I have the benefit of those polar patterns working for me at higher frequencies (mid-hi xover at 1k7 hz so 7" width isn't destructive)

And Yes and yes. ha ha.
Yes, I need more energy in total to make up for the "steering cancellation energy" lost and the on axis result.
Yes, That's why I also divide the duties up between four sub's instead of two to reduce max displacement and therefore no movement in areas of higher distortion.
It is appearing that this combination of twice the power, twice the subs has kept me at relatively normal distortion levels but this is by listening, I still have to measure to verify this. And thus another question about KII design?

So it appears we are on the same wavelength (sorry I love bad puns).

Cheers,

Tom eh

Would be interested to see a pic of this system actually!
 

tomeh

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I'll snap a couple of cell phone shots for you. I'm a techy not a marketing person so you won't see it on any shiny brochures. :)
 

Emlin

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Has anyone seen any proper and full specs for the BXT? Kii promised them for Q3 when they launched them back in May but there is still nothing more on their site, where they say that even the footplates are still not finalised.
 
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amirm

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I was looking for observations from anyone who has actually heard these themselves or better yet tried some measurements themselves. I am interested because I have evolved to a playback "system" in my studio by trying to take as much of the room out of it without leaving it sounding like a test chamber.
I have heard them at shows a number of times. They play very loud without distortion. And bass response is tight and as if you used normal speakers and then used room correction to dial out low frequency resonances. So I say you should seek an audition if you can.
 

tomeh

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For Andreasmaaan. I didn't shoot electronics as they are pretty generic and the settings mean more than the pics. This is a 21' wide, 31.5 ' long and 8.6' high playback room. The subs are 42.5' apart.
 

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tomeh

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I have heard them at shows a number of times. They play very loud without distortion. And bass response is tight and as if you used normal speakers and then used room correction to dial out low frequency resonances. So I say you should seek an audition if you can.
Thanks I'm going to try and hear them in Toronto in two weeks. They are hard to find around here.
 

amirm

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I didn't shoot electronics as they are pretty generic and the settings mean more than the pics. This is a 21' wide, 31.5 ' long and 8.6' high playback room. The subs are 42.5' apart.
Is that your current setup? If so, I am not sure you will be happy with Kiis. They play as smaller source point/bookshelf type speaker. I suspect yours throw a very tall image which it won't have.
 
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