Hi would adding a external DAC to the wiim ultra streamer make a difference/improve sound?

[techsamurai]

Because the designers bias themselves into hearing improvements, set the RRP accordingly, which in turn only reinforces expectation bias in their customers.

Double blind tests at every step of the way would crash most of the hifi market in one fell swoop.

90% of this industry is built on bias, lies, and deception and as such, plain incompatible with DBT. That's why no one does it.

Yeah but I've owned the Denon 4800h for 2 years now and I've custom EQ and while it sounds fantastic, it has never moved me like my old Marantz SR8002 which was an emotional roller coaster.


I just did a search using Gemini which took minutes asking about the DAC chip differences. Apparently, the 8002 had the flagship Cirrus/Crystal CS4398 for the front stereo speakers.

The 4800h uses TI's PCM5102.

The Sound character of each:

8002 Warm, Smooth, Refined

4800H Clean, Neutral, Thin

I have 1,000s of hours on both (10,000s on the 8002) and it's spot on. In fact, the difference between them is probably the same as FLAC vs 320kbps. I think the 4800h comes close to the 8002 with FLAC while the 8002 can match the 4800h with 320kbps.

 

[amper42]

Hi, you've been a member here for a little while now so consider all the posts (many, many posts) saying over and over again that after a point DACs do not offer any sound improvement and that power supplies also mane no difference to sound quality.

Other sites contradict those simple statements but they offer no evidence and no measurements.

While DAC's are a resolved issue, certain DAC products can sound different should they contain unique filters or custom EQ options and the user learns to exploit them. In addition, XLR can offer measurable performance gains over RCA in some situations. And the Wiim units are known to have low grade RCA connectors.

I found an extreme audible difference between my Topping D90SE and the RME ADI-2 DAC FS. Primarily, because of the customizable Loudness compensation EQ available. That one feature gave the RME the ability to customize sound to my exact preference. It made my Topping D90SE sound bland in comparison with various speakers.

I understand many on ASR think all DACs sound alike, but if you take the time to listen and dive into learning the customization features included in Loudness compensation you may not be satisfied with "just another DAC"?

 

[techsamurai]

Hi, you've been a member here for a little while now so consider all the posts (many, many posts) saying over and over again that after a point DACs do not offer any sound improvement and that power supplies also mane no difference to sound quality.

Other sites contradict those simple statements but they offer no evidence and no measurements.

I dunno - I'm sitting in the same couch as I always have and it sounds different to me and my family. Sure, the 4800h sounds fantastic but the 8002 was something else. It had flaws but they were Catherine Deneuve level flaws

 

[Mort]

I dunno - I'm sitting in the same couch as I always have and it sounds different to me and my family. Sure, the 4800h sounds fantastic but the 8002 was something else. It had flaws but they were Catherine Deneuve level flaws

Fascinating, you must hear differently than the rest of us. Unfortunately, you will need to trial and error until you find your holy grail.

Good luck!

Meanwhile, I can use measurements to narrow down my choices to a handful of excellently performing components.

 

[voodooless]

I understand many on ASR think all DACs sound alike, but if you take the time to listen and dive into learning the customization features included in Loudness compensation you may not be satisfied with "just another DAC"?

Nobody will argue that additional processing done will make an audible diffrence The "all DACs sound the same" obviously comes with some important caveats: no additional EQ done, and it should measure halfway decent.

I just did a search using Gemini which took minutes asking about the DAC chip differences. Apparently, the 8002 had the flagship Cirrus/Crystal CS4398 for the front stereo speakers.

The 4800h uses TI's PCM5102.

The Sound character of each:

8002 Warm, Smooth, Refined

4800H Clean, Neutral, Thin

This is pure nonsense, and based on the same stories that formed your own biases.

Recently gone from Marantz SR6010 to a Denon X3800h. I won't claim to hear any differences between the two, also because there was a pause in between, and the speakers are not the same either. But I highly doubt that they sound different with all processing disabled. Enabled processing clearly gives superior results, though. The newer Audyssey has much better tweakability with the app (not yet using Dirac).

 

[techsamurai]

Fascinating, you must hear differently than the rest of us. Unfortunately, you will need to trial and error until you find your holy grail.

Good luck!

Meanwhile, I can use measurements to narrow down my choices to a handful of excellently performing components.

I would say most audiophiles are definitely more susceptible to differences - that's probably the reason they pursue this passion. My struggle after 2 years of owning the 4800h are an indication that something is different- otherwise, I would tell people to replace their racks of Esoteric and McIntosh with my 4800h and live the life fandango. It could be that the 4800h is actually better but my brain and ears do not like what they hear.

Like I said, I listened to a lot of the 8002 in DD+ and DD TrueHD and 8001 (identical) in DD and DTS and I played them side-by-side, and I wouldn't say the higher resolution was better.

But higher-res (FLAC) does help the 4800h come closer to the 8002 when I play 320kbps. The details come out a bit more which indicates to me that the Denon was lacking in some regard (probably the TI 5102 DAC) and bumping up the resolution to 1,411kbps made up some of the difference to 320kbps.

Now, I'm not going to say my hearing is perfect - far from it. I had my surround speakers connected the wrong way, and I didn't notice it for a few months I'm not sure if it says more about my ears or the value of rear surrounds.

 

[amper42]

Recently gone from Marantz SR6010 to a Denon X3800h. I won't claim to hear any differences between the two, also because there was a pause in between, and the speakers are not the same either. But I highly doubt that they sound different with all processing disabled. Enabled processing clearly gives superior resultsthough. The newer Audyssey has much better tweakability with the app (Not yet using Dirac).

The difference between Denon and Marantz sound (if it exists), is likely not the DAC chip itself but, rather the circuitry differences between the two designs. Many hear no difference, others say there is (including Marantz). I don't have an opinion but, when you hear a difference between units with a quality DAC chip it's likely more than just the chip causing the effect.

As an example, when RME went from AK4490 ("A" model) to AK4493 ("B" model) in 2019 and after AKM fire moved to ESS Technology ES9028Q2M ("C" model) the sound was matched very well between these units. Engineering design matters. If I have both my ADI-2 DAC "B" with AKM AK4493 and the version C model with ES9028Q2M playing in an A B test they sound the same to my ears. It's the total design that impacts the sound, not just that one chip.

 

[techsamurai]

This is pure nonsense, and based on the same stories that formed your own biases.

Recently gone from Marantz SR6010 to a Denon X3800h. I won't claim to hear any differences between the two,

I can't speak for your own experience but I have my own experience over nearly 20 years. Don't get me wrong the 4800h sounds great and better with dialogue but in terms of wanting to listen to music or music in movies or games, the 8002 is like a championship winning Formula 1 car. You just don't want to let it go... I would not even have my hands on the 4800h.

no additional EQ done, and it should measure halfway decent.

Do DACs do EQ? I know that products offer room correction, EQ, and PEQ but do DACs have a sound signature applying a curve of sorts?

 

[voodooless]

I can't speak for your own experience but I have my own experience over nearly 20 years. Don't get me wrong the 4800h sounds great and better with dialogue but in terms of wanting to listen to music or music in movies or games, the 8002 is like a championship winning Formula 1 car. You just don't want to let it go... I would not even have my hands on the 4800h.

Sure, people also have 20 years of experience in swapping cables around, without those actualy doing anything to the sound. People are simply governed by their biases in a massive way. There is just very little you can do about it, other than accept it.

Do DACs do EQ?

Some do, like the RME that @amper42 mentioned. But it's highly configurable.

I know that products offer room correction, EQ, and PEQ but do DACs have a sound signature applying a curve of sorts?

By default: no. Everything should be nice and flat. There are very rare occastions though, that this is not the case. I know of the DAC that has a 1 or 2dB shelf to boost bass a bit. You cannot shut it off. Sadly, I don't remember the brand or model... And yes, this will be audible!

 

[techsamurai]

The difference between Denon and Marantz sound (if it exists), is likely not the DAC chip itself but, rather the circuitry differences between the two designs. Many hear no difference, others say there is (including Marantz). I don't have an opinion but, when you hear a difference between units with a quality DAC chip it's likely more than just the chip causing the effect.

As an example, when RME went from AK4490 ("A" model) to AK4493 ("B" model) in 2019 and after AKM fire moved to ESS Technology ES9028Q2M ("C" model) the sound was matched very well between these units. Engineering design matters. If I have both my ADI-2 DAC "B" with AKM AK4493 and the version C model with ES9028Q2M playing in an A B test they sound the same to my ears. It's the total design that impacts the sound, not just that one chip.

Yeah, and I got the Cinema 70 to test that. Both the 4800H and Cinema 70 were in pre-amp mode and I believe the 70 uses the same TI PCM5102A as the 4800h.

Cinema 70 had a lower version of Audyssey - I believe it's the same as the 8002/8001. Both the Cinema 70 (with Audyssey MultEQ) and 4800h (with Audyssey XT32) sounded different (to be generous to them) than the 8002 after calibration but they sounded the same between each other.

I decided to hold onto the 4800h because it was nearly the same price and offered much more connectivity (almost same as 8002) and other features.

Now, in the past I had bought another Denon (2005-2006) and that sounded SOOOO different to my Marantz (Cinema 60/3800h level today) especially the bass.

 

[amper42]

Do DACs do EQ? I know that products offer room correction, EQ, and PEQ but do DACs have a sound signature applying a curve of sorts?

Most DAC's don't offer EQ and especially custom Loudness features. Some newer DACs have appeared with EQ capability but can add distortion when engaged. It's all over the map. EQ is becoming more prevalent in new products.

The trick is finding the design that best fits your needs. In the case of Denon and Marantz they offer a wide variety of custom EQ tools. It's really hard to run a receiver in PURE mode these days as it typically cancels out many great features.

 

[techsamurai]

By default: no. Everything should be nice and flat. There are very rare occastions though, that this is not the case. I know of the DAC that has a 1 or 2dB shelf to boost bass a bit. You cannot shut it off. Sadly, I don't remember the brand or model... And yes, this will be audible!

1 or 2dB shelf to boost bass a bit - that's audible?

I'd personally be shocked if anyone noticed that. I'd like to think I would but only my brain would. But then again, I did not notice that the rear surrounds were mis-configured but I notice that there's dust in the connection and the faintest of crackles would appear here and there.

 

[Mort]

1 or 2dB shelf to boost bass a bit - that's audible?

Easier to detect than differences between competent DACs.

 

[voodooless]

1 or 2dB shelf to boost bass a bit - that's audible?

Your audibility claims are based on 0 dB diffrence...

 

[techsamurai]

As an example, when RME went from AK4490 ("A" model) to AK4493 ("B" model) in 2019 and after AKM fire moved to ESS Technology ES9028Q2M ("C" model) the sound was matched very well between these units. Engineering design matters. If I have both my ADI-2 DAC "B" with AKM AK4493 and the version C model with ES9028Q2M playing in an A B test they sound the same to my ears. It's the total design that impacts the sound, not just that one chip.

Generally speaking, everyone raves about the AK chips. The ES9028Q2M is actually a lower DAC than the ES9038Q2M in the WiiM ultra (to remain on topic).

I'm assuming you're talking about the SR8015. From what I recall, I believe the change was not well received but it seems you were able to run a test and you didn't notice a difference.

 

[techsamurai]

Your audibility claims are based on 0 dB diffrence...

Well, I know the bass doesn't make a difference cause I was going up and down on my SVS by 1-2 db yesterday and I couldn't hear the difference in Kings of Convenience but I was also not playing "Turn Down for What".

I guess I'll try a WiiM ultra and see what happens.

 

[techsamurai]

For £ 5000, I would indeed choose an active system: Wiim Pro (plus), a set of KH150, and some nice subs. Pretty much endgame!

Why are active systems so highly regarded? They use tiny Class D amps (not sure if they are even Purifi) for each of the drivers (usually) and they are stashed inside the cabinet. But even standmounts somehow seem to play at 25hz which passive towers have trouble playing at 30-40hz in the same price range.

Is it the active crossover and bi/tri-amping?

 

[voodooless]

Why are active systems so highly regarded? They use tiny Class D amps (not sure if they are even Purifi) for each of the drivers (usually) and they are stashed inside the cabinet. But even standmounts somehow seem to play at 25hz which passive towers have trouble playing at 30-40hz in the same price range.

Kh150 do not play down to 25 Hz, nor will most other compact actives. 45 Hz is doable maybe sub 40 if near a corner.

Often things like limiters are used to be able to enjoy deep bass until the systems runs out of steam. Amps and gain structures are tailor made for the drivers. The performance is whatever is specified. Nothing more, nothing less. Class D amps are small, and more than good enough for excellent sound quality. Realistically you don’t need a Purifi amp, and the measurements show this. They are top notch!

Is it the active crossover and bi/tri-amping?

No, it’s not a single thing. It’s the whole package that makes this an excellent product.

 

[Roland68]

I would say most audiophiles are definitely more susceptible to differences - that's probably the reason they pursue this passion. My struggle after 2 years of owning the 4800h are an indication that something is different- otherwise, I would tell people to replace their racks of Esoteric and McIntosh with my 4800h and live the life fandango. It could be that the 4800h is actually better but my brain and ears do not like what they hear.

Based on my experience with blind tests over the last 25 years, which often included so-called audiophiles who brought their own equipment, cables, etc., I can only dismiss this as utter nonsense.

As soon as they couldn't see or know what was being used, they were completely helpless.
The previously made claims that it would be a night-and-day difference (just one of many quotes) almost always proved to be nothing.
Often, they even identified the supposedly superior device as the inferior one.

We also deliberately conducted some very nasty tests where we allowed them to see the devices that were (supposedly) running, but in reality, the other device was running.
Guess what happened then.

In our blind tests, which were solely about determining whether and what kind of sonic differences actually existed, most so-called audiophiles were not very helpful because they had great difficulty identifying and assessing small differences.

 

[techsamurai]

Well, I listened to a recording of 4 DACs (Bluesound Node, Node Icon, Cambridge Audio AXN10, WiiM Ultra). Yes, it was a recording and yes it was compressed and yes it was not fully blind but it was near impossible to tell them apart starting from the iPad, to my system, to my headphones. The only thing I would say I may have detected is less coherence in the Wiim Ultra (and that was almost impossible to tell with ears just the brain flagging the music as having some issue) which is something I've said before - the brain can detect (or fabricate) things the eyes cannot see or the ears cannot hear.

I also would not necessarily attribute the Wiim differences to the DAC chip.

Here is an interesting story about how the brain can see things the eyes cannot. I saw a picture of a person on a website and I couldn't stop thinking about that picture for the whole day - I had no idea why as it was just a picture on a web page that I saw for a split second. I clearly didn't know the person or recognize him. It turns out he was in my elementary school class and some part of my brain projected his growth as an adult and discovered a possible match - it must have been the eyes as the other features were almost completely unrecognizable. Obviously the same applies to sound - once the brain has to qualify the sound there's clearly an issue that the ears cannot hear but the brain is able to detect and says "no mas - there is an issue"