Hi-end speakers, new or used?

[Ilkless]

Personally, I would stay away from buying speakers older than ~5 years old, since the degradation of the units' material is an unknown and not easily identifiable factor, especially if the buyer cannot examine the speaker from close.

As restorer-john spiders and, maybe even more crucially, driver suspensions are heavily subjected to degradation. Foams tend to wear off and sometimes completely fall off after >10 years. Rubber suspensions tend to harden, especially when exposed to humid and warm climates.
I remember a thread over at diyaudio where a user compared the Fs values of a rubber suspension Vifa PW unit that was stored for 3 years, and found it 3 times higher than the manufacturer's specification. I wouldn't be surprised if this type of material degradation would introduce perceptible changes to the sound compared to a new speaker.

Regarded speaker suggestions, i believe that Dynaudio is getting heavily snubbed in this forum in comparison to other (rightfully) trending brands like Neumann, Genelec.

Stereophile test the DSP equipped Focus XD 200 and in my opinion, their FR, phase and off-axis performance was comparable even to Kii threes as tested by the same magazine
https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-focus-200-xd-powered-loudspeaker-measurements

The Dynaudio XD-600, has also been tested by Mr. Barnett at audiophilestyle with good results
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dynaudio-focus-600-xd-loudspeaker-review/

Even the Dynaudio Air 12, a professional model launched with DSP more than 10 years ago, posted excellent measurements by today's standards. They were one of the best measuring professional speakers that resolution mag has measured:
https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Dynaudio-Acoustics-Air-12.pdf

And to put another perspective, their newest top of the line speakers designed and branded (for the first time maybe?) as directivity based speakers:
https://www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/confidence/confidence-60

Personally, if i was on the market for a used speaker, Dynaudio would be one of the first companies that i would look given the above and the fact that support on a potential failing/faltering driver (the most vulnerable part) should be better than other brands since they produce the drivers inhouse.

I find Dynaudio difficult to recommend considering their morbid fascination with outmoded 6dB/octave crossovers, as well as very ill-advised crossover choices for their active monitors. Like the LYD-7, which crosses from a 7" midbass to tweeter at 4.3kHz(!)

 

[neph]

I find Dynaudio difficult to recommend considering their morbid fascination with outmoded 6dB/octave crossovers, as well as very ill-advised crossover choices for their active monitors. Like the LYD-7, which crosses from a 7" midbass to tweeter at 4.3kHz(!)

Are you sure that their DSPed models use 1st order crossovers? If the LYD 7 uses a 6dB/octave cross at 4.3 khz, that means that the 7" magnesium woofer would have significant output well past its breaking frequency and would sound horrible. I highly doubt it.

The only case of a Dynaudio speaker using 6db/octave slope is their passive top of the line evidence master model. Stereophile measured it and as you can see below it was extremely flat on axis, very well behaved on the horizontal off-axis and adequately so on vertical axis. I know that at times Dynaudio has been (unfairly maybe?) criticized for crossover design, but the bottom graphs show good crossover design given the 1st order off-axis fundamental limitations.

The LYD48 polars, which are not the top of the pro-line model, are not very shy-off a Genelec 83xx.

Apologies for the multiple links

 

[Ilkless]

Are you sure that their DSPed models use 1st order crossovers? If the LYD 7 uses a 6dB/octave cross at 4.3 khz, that means that the 7" magnesium woofer would have significant output well past its breaking frequency and would sound horrible. I highly doubt it.

The only case of a Dynaudio speaker using 6db/octave slope is their passive top of the line evidence master model. Stereophile measured it and as you can see below it was extremely flat on axis, very well behaved on the horizontal off-axis and adequately so on vertical axis. I know that at times Dynaudio has been (unfairly maybe?) criticized for crossover design, but the bottom graphs show good crossover design given the 1st order off-axis fundamental limitations.

The LYD48 polars, which are not the top of the pro-line model, are not very shy-off a Genelec 83xx.

View attachment 35448

Apologies for the multiple links

I did not imply the LYD-7 used a first-order specifically. I meant their choice of first-order and the choice of an excessively XO frequency as two separate indications of questionable crossover implementations that they'd release to market. Even if they don't use a 6dB/octave crossover at 4.3kHz, the choice of crossover frequency for a 7" midbass to tweeter is remarkably ignorant of the effects of driver beaming and directivity matching. Crossing an entire octave below (~2.15kHz) without a waveguide would tend to yield some mismatch already for that driver diameter and CtC, let alone at 4.3kHz.

Also note that Dynaudio consistently mentions "first-order crossovers" in their product literature for their passives. Presumably they mean first-order electrical, not acoustic. You'd need really wideband drivers crossed well below their effective bandwidth for any semblance of 6dB/octave throughout the driver transition region. Think Thiel Audio. Otherwise driver rolloff will sum with the 6dB/octave slope to yield a steeper acoustical crossover (the net result of driver roll-off, potentially baffle effects and the electrical crossover).

And no, the LYD48 polars are questionable. Refer to this pdf for polars of the Neumann KH310 in the exact same form factor:

Let's focus on the -3 to -6dB band, because that's shared between both graphs. The scale is different, but from ~1.6kHz onwards, the Neumann's directivity doesn't have any crazy narrowing from 3-10kHz and a 10kHz flare.

 

[neph]

I did not imply the LYD-7 used a first-order specifically. I meant their choice of first-order and the choice of an excessively XO frequency as two separate indications of questionable crossover implementations that they'd release to market. Even if they don't use a 6dB/octave crossover at 4.3kHz, the choice of crossover frequency for a 7" midbass to tweeter is remarkably ignorant of the effects of driver beaming and directivity matching. Crossing an entire octave below (~2.15kHz) without a waveguide would tend to yield some mismatch already for that driver diameter and CtC, let alone at 4.3kHz.

I get that of 6db/oct cross (acoustic,electric w.e.) sometimes is used to appeal to a specific type of audiophiles. However that and especially the use of 4.3khz point (which i agree, is not usual), i would assume are choices that Dynaudio deliberately made and engineered the speaker accordingly, knowing exactly the limitations of the driver that they themselves design and produced. If anything, to assume that a manufacturer ignores basic design principles (driver beaming, directivity matching, etc. ), while at the time key advertizing their current SOTA for (quote) "next generation of our innovative DDC (Dynaudio Directivity Control) sound-shaping technology platform", is an ignorant statement by itself.

And if we are going to be more specific, lets take a look at the off-axis Stereophile of focus 200 XD which also uses a 6.5" unit (not sure if it is exactly the same with LYD7) and crosses at 4.2khz. Beaming or not (?), this to my eyes is v. good off-axis performance. Are we going to judge Dynaudio subjectively for using an uncommon and theoretically bad cross point, or subjectively for achieving good performance?

As regards polars of the LYD48 vs the 310, the fact that LYD's y-axis ° range is half, combined with a log x-axis, exacerbate the ripples. Comparing the 2 graphs on the same scale and size as seen on the bottom graph, shows that both have some rippling around the crossover points highlighted by the circles. In absolute terms the 310 are still a bit better, but to my eyes, both speakers have good behaviour with a clean window of 0-3 db within ±30° .The LYD48 is only slightly narrowing after 12-13khz (x-axis is in log scale) in comparison to the waveguide equipped 310. I really wouldn't describe LYDs performance as questionable, it seems a bit elitistic to my ears at least.

I get the feeling that, especially after the PSaudiogate, some audiophile equipment and traditional or boutique speakers as some like to refer to, are focused in a negative way and criticized undeservingly so. In the end, Dyns, PMCs, ATCs still manage to maintain sales in the hi-end pro segment, where I consider sales is a very round and fair metric of performance since personal auditioning almost always takes place.

 

[Soniclife]

hi-end pro segment

Does that segment not have quite different needs to the rest of us, given they may be using sofit mounting, and will be using lots of room treatment. Two things that change the direct reflected sound importance a lot.

 

[A Surfer]

Returning to the idea of used or new speakers, clearly there are several considerations that may lead to a fantastic or abysmal result for the buyer. I recently was able to get a pair of absolutely pristine, low-hours of use Monitor Audio PL200 and I could not be happier with that used purchase. The price that I paid was well less than retail which means that I also saved the considerable sales tax that accompanies buying new in my tax jurisdiction. I have no idea if they would measure well, but they sound wonderful to my ears.

 

[RayDunzl]

Bought new Feb 1998.

That makes them used now.

Left/Right in asymmetrical room at the listening position, no EQ

Don't see anything wrong with one that's not wrong with the other:

With EQ (flat)

Nor for sale, sorry.

Though you can find a pair for $1~$2k

 

[Darvis]

The only caveat is the Neumann’s don’t have the WAF of most consumer brands. But the sound, the sound is second to none. I’m hearing more detail from my favourite music than I ever have. I can feel the bass, punchy and rhythmic and yet sometimes there’s none. It’s the recordings true mix coming through.

I put together the KH-420’s with matching KH-805’s for less than 10K. The mains were B-stock, small scratches on the bottom of the cabinet that we never see. The subs were one dealer demo and one used. View attachment 35222View attachment 35223

These replaced a pair of ATC SCM 150ASL that I had for 15 years. In my mind they are a bargain. YMMV

They don't have the HAF either, as far as I'm concerned, women are not the only ones thinking twice about putting big bland looking boxes in the living room

 

[RayDunzl]

They don't have the HAF either, as far as I'm concerned, women are not the only ones thinking twice about putting big bland looking boxes in the living room

If you start your shopping with these, you can probably compromise on what you really want.

 

[Darvis]

If you start your shopping with these, you can probably compromise on what you really want.

View attachment 71469

Lol, I'm sure there is even something tackier somewhere, but not easily found, this one is hard to top

 

[raindance]

Buy used, hopefully not abused. I've had really good luck with used speakers through Audiogon, US Audiomart and Craigslist. I've also heard that The Music Room, tmraudio.com, do a decent job on speakers. Just don't buy from people with no feedback.

 

[q3cpma]

If you start your shopping with these, you can probably compromise on what you really want.

View attachment 71469

They didn't use the navel for the plug and the nether region to host a ribbon tweeter? If you do it, do it right!