Hi-end speakers, new or used?

[FrantzM]

Hi

Coming from a person in search of a speaker for his next serious room (at this point in time I have resigned myself to do HT which I enjoy immensely in my current room and listen to music through Headphones) ...
10 K used can buy you a lot of speakers. I would consider:

The Revel TOL "Ultima Salon 2" it runs often @ $10 K . Look at this see this simple search on Audiogon: https://www.audiogon.com/listings?q=Revel+Ultima
You could also consider a pair of used JBL 4367 @ $8000 which leaves you with enough money to buy 3 or 4, $500 subwoofers

Or the aforementioned Revel F228BE

I would pair any of these speakers, which are quite capable in the bass department, with a trio of powered subwoofers , say Rythmik L22... or SVS SB1000. I am of the opinion that Multiple subwoofers are mandatory for the best bass reproduction. Yes, this requires work, lot of that , but the results are worth the investment in time.

Now from Left field. LInkwitz LX521.4, I haven't heard one yet.. .. It is a kit , Doesn't seem to require a lot of time or woodworking skills to build. It is more of a system, since it requires 8 to 10 channel of amplification and an electronic active crossover yet the entire system may end costing less than 10 K.... High on my list sight unseen

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yes. My expensive speaker purchases have all had disappointing lifetimes or required replacement components prematurely in my opinion. The secondhand ones have ultimately been the most reliable. But I don't buy expensive speakers anymore- I'm done for a while. (have no more space for HiFi)

My current speakers were expensive, are probably worth almost nothing used since they weigh over 130kg each but still sound great and work perfectly, as far as I can hear, 22 years after I bought them.

 

[Cbdb2]

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like used is the way to go (like cars) if: There in good condition, you dont care what color etc, and the biggest if, if you can find the model you want. Im thinking active, but that narrows it down a lot, so maybe not. This one caught my eye. https://vancouver.craigslist.org/rds/ele/d/surrey-dynaudio-focus-600-xds-for-sale/6988954354.html which still have some extended waranty left.
But I need to listen to some more in this price range before i go out to hear these. I heard a pair of Paradign Persona F3s ( $14k Canadian, all berylium drivers), and they were an eye opener ( first $10k speakers ive heard in a long time) They sounded great, a little bright but otherwise I realy liked them. If the Dynes sound as good then all the electronics is a bonus. The biggest problem buying used in this price range is availability. ( unless you want Focals, seems like lots of used ones around). On the plus sde theres not a huge demand. Those Dynes have been for sale for 3 months and the price has dropped twice, $500 dolars each time.

 

[Ilkless]

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like used is the way to go (like cars) if: There in good condition, you dont care what color etc, and the biggest if, if you can find the model you want. Im thinking active, but that narrows it down a lot, so maybe not. This one caught my eye. https://vancouver.craigslist.org/rds/ele/d/surrey-dynaudio-focus-600-xds-for-sale/6988954354.html which still have some extended waranty left.
But I need to listen to some more in this price range before i go out to hear these. I heard a pair of Paradign Persona F3s ( $14k Canadian, all berylium drivers), and they were an eye opener ( first $10k speakers ive heard in a long time) They sounded great, a little bright but otherwise I realy liked them. If the Dynes sound as good then all the electronics is a bonus. The biggest problem buying used in this price range is availability. ( unless you want Focals, seems like lots of used ones around). On the plus sde theres not a huge demand. Those Dynes have been for sale for 3 months and the price has dropped twice, $500 dolars each time.

Both are far from the most sophisticated examples of active speakers. Genelec and Neumann speakers are at the state-of-the-art far ahead of Paradigm and Dynaudio. They are available within your budget even new. The Genelec 8361 and Neumann KH420 come to mind. Or the JBL 708p with subs.

The Dutch&Dutch 8C and Kii Three are also around 10k used.

 

[Eurasian]

https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floor...rstanding-speakers-white-satin-pair-wireless/

An even better deal, but slight damage. If I didn't already have NHT XDs, I'd be all over these!

 

[JJB70]

Rather than start with defining a budget then looking for a speaker to fill that budget I'd recommend starting by trying to understand what you want from your next speakers and then identify suitable models. You may find something that meets your needs for a lot less. Working with a budget can be a good approach at the bottom end of things but at 10k you are way beyond the point of diminishing returns.

And yes, Genelec are very good, in general you get better bang for buck from pro market speakers.

 

[Vintage57]

The only caveat is the Neumann’s don’t have the WAF of most consumer brands. But the sound, the sound is second to none. I’m hearing more detail from my favourite music than I ever have. I can feel the bass, punchy and rhythmic and yet sometimes there’s none. It’s the recordings true mix coming through.

I put together the KH-420’s with matching KH-805’s for less than 10K. The mains were B-stock, small scratches on the bottom of the cabinet that we never see. The subs were one dealer demo and one used.

These replaced a pair of ATC SCM 150ASL that I had for 15 years. In my mind they are a bargain. YMMV

 

[q3cpma]

Do you even need the subs with KH420's incredible -3 dB @ 26 Hz?

 

[Cbdb2]

Thats $10k Canadian so about $7k USD, ouch. Those Nuemans ( $14k +tax) and Dutch &D new are a lot more, And used ones are hard to find.

 

[Cbdb2]

And is it true the kh420s are all A/B amps and analog xovers? So no DSP no Digital conversion?

 

[Vintage57]

I agree on first look it appears to be overkill. I read, printed and read much of what is on the Neumann website for the KH420 and the KH805 and concluded the enhanced Intermodulation distortion by using their subs was worth it. There is more air moving with subs and you can feel it on some not all recordings. It’s made them essentially 4-way speakers with sub playing lowest 2 octaves from 18Hz - 80 Hz. Plus they’re the perfect height and width for stands.

http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neum...9025D8C4F126AD8C12578B2003A71E9?Open&term=TIM

https://en-de.neumann.com/file-finder?product=KH 420&category=monitors

https://en-de.neumann.com/file-finder?product=KH 810&category=monitors

 

[Vintage57]

Thats $10k Canadian so about $7k USD, ouch. Those Nuemans ( $14k +tax) and Dutch &D new are a lot more, And used ones are hard to find.

Speakers are about 7K USD and subs about 2.5K USD. B stock and used.

 

[Vintage57]

And is it true the kh420s are all A/B amps and analog xovers? So no DSP?

Correct I have miniDSP DD-22 and I’m not using it at the moment.

 

[Erik]

Technics SB-R1 off-axis behavior does not look great.

Source: AUDIO magazine.

 

[beefkabob]

Also, if you wanna watch movies, get a serious sub.

 

[Cbdb2]

Have a system for movies, with a velodyne sub, these are for music only, but i guess i could use the sub, prefer not to.

 

[Cbdb2]

Ild be interested in the KH420s if i could find some for $10k Cnd, but new with tax looks closer to $15k.

 

[Vintage57]

Ild be interested in the KH420s if i could find some for $10k Cnd, but new with tax looks closer to $15k.

There 2 separate offers of 1 each on eBay. They maybe open to reasonable offers, I imagine onesies are a little harder to sell.

I have no affiliation to either poster on eBay.

 

[Cbdb2]

Thx, I need to find a place to hear them.

 

[neph]

Personally, I would stay away from buying speakers older than ~5 years old, since the degradation of the units' material is an unknown and not easily identifiable factor, especially if the buyer cannot examine the speaker from close.

As restorer-john spiders and, maybe even more crucially, driver suspensions are heavily subjected to degradation. Foams tend to wear off and sometimes completely fall off after >10 years. Rubber suspensions tend to harden, especially when exposed to humid and warm climates.
I remember a thread over at diyaudio where a user compared the Fs values of a rubber suspension Vifa PW unit that was stored for 3 years, and found it 3 times higher than the manufacturer's specification. I wouldn't be surprised if this type of material degradation would introduce perceptible changes to the sound compared to a new speaker.

Regarded speaker suggestions, i believe that Dynaudio is getting heavily snubbed in this forum in comparison to other (rightfully) trending brands like Neumann, Genelec.

Stereophile test the DSP equipped Focus XD 200 and in my opinion, their FR, phase and off-axis performance was comparable even to Kii threes as tested by the same magazine
https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-focus-200-xd-powered-loudspeaker-measurements

The Dynaudio XD-600, has also been tested by Mr. Barnett at audiophilestyle with good results
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dynaudio-focus-600-xd-loudspeaker-review/

Even the Dynaudio Air 12, a professional model launched with DSP more than 10 years ago, posted excellent measurements by today's standards. They were one of the best measuring professional speakers that resolution mag has measured:
https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Dynaudio-Acoustics-Air-12.pdf

And to put another perspective, their newest top of the line speakers designed and branded (for the first time maybe?) as directivity based speakers:
https://www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/confidence/confidence-60

Personally, if i was on the market for a used speaker, Dynaudio would be one of the first companies that i would look given the above and the fact that support on a potential failing/faltering driver (the most vulnerable part) should be better than other brands since they produce the drivers inhouse.