• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Hi end professional studio monitors vs hi end "hi-fi" speakers

jonfitch

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
479
Likes
532
I forgot: block the port. Phase inverter designs are really sensitive to the driver T/S params, sealed box designs are much less sensitive. No, Focal automotive speakers T/S params are published. Nothing special or unusual. Tried, tested, works.

That's one thing you can't really do with powered monitors--blocking the port! Can cause the amps to overheat lol.

Other downside I see is idle noise can be an issue in low ambient noise levels in the nearfield. This gets even worse with analog input sources. With passive speakers, a receiver will usually have a set of multichannel inputs specifically for analog use that have the lowest noise levels that you can use, and actually one reason I love low sensitivity hifi speakers--low noise level with analog sources. One thing you will notice immediately between passive speakers--hook up some high efficiency 98db Klipsch speakers, and the passive noise floor goes up compared to hooking them up to some extremely low efficiency 82db Salk or Usher monitors. This tends to be great for quality of life nearfield that you just cant achieve with powered monitors.
 

Colonel Bogey

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2020
Messages
93
Likes
122
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
A bit off topic, but definitely relevant to OPs statement. In general and historically, electronic equipment that was geared towards professionals, has been overpriced compared to consumer goods of similar products.

Say you wanted to buy a medical LCD monitor, it can cost thousands, while it is no better or in many cases worse than cheaper consumer monitors. Industry is there to make money, if they make specialty gear for a niche business that makes tons of money, it will sell lots of products at higher prices.

professional audio equipment and studio monitors are not too different. They are still overpriced. The elephant in the room are the audiophiles, who would not buy anything unless it is 10 times more expensive than competition.

In audio equipment, this has not been true for years. Maybe because the music industry doesn't have the margins it used to have, studios and producers are on a budget and suppliers adapt. Unless you look at the lowest end of the spectrum, pro gear has a lot better price/performance than consumer stuff, both int terms of build and components as well as in actual sound reproduction.
 

Colonel Bogey

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2020
Messages
93
Likes
122
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
How many times do I have to state the loudness and clarity of studio monitors is great in a studio when performing a task in a studio, but tiring to listen to in a personal listening room, so they're not for me for personal listening? Where are your precise objective measurements? How much did you have to "tweak" your various studio monitors to reduce listening fatigue? Do you have a before/after graph showing your "tweak"? Where is your ABX testing result of the change the tweak accomplished?

Finally, why can't I simply say, as I have been saying, that I see their value for performing studio work, but they hurt my ears so I would not personally own them for personal listening?

"Spinorama" type of speaker measurements are quite widely accepted as good predictor of how well a speaker will perceived to perform in a room. As I have been able to see so far, looking at measurements of speakers that perform well in terms of frequency response, directivity or distortion levels, excellent results are produced by powered studio monitors at far lower price points than comparably performing consumer gear.

As an amateur musician and frequent concertgoer, I have selected typical powered studio monitors as my home audio system, experiencing no listening fatigue to talk of.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
How would hi end studio monitors (plus a sub I guess)
like Genelec 8351B and Neumann KH420, D&D 8C etc, compare to mainstream hi end speakers like Focal Utopia or B&W D4?
Obviously they're all excellent when compared to other studio monitors but I wonder if they can even compete when compared to hi end hifi speakers, especially when considering that the price of these speakers is much higher and they're usually huge in comparison.

could you define high end studio monitor ?

what about ATC, KS digital, Meyer Sound, Ocean Way, Psi Audio, Adam,Barefoot, JBL.....
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
I am really interested because I own kh310 now after having listened probably more than 1000 systems the last 35 years (and owned dynamic,

As an amateur musician and frequent concertgoer, I have selected typical powered studio monitors as my home audio system, experiencing no listening fatigue to talk of.


me as i am perfect i know.
 

Goodman

Active Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Messages
210
Likes
81
Quite the opposite; despite their extreme price, ultra high end hifi speakers rarely match the sound quality of good studio monitors (which cost far less). In fact, the number of hifi audio brands that we know make speakers approximately as flawless as the best studio monitors (like Neumann and Genelec) you can definitely count on one hand: Revel, JBL, KEF, and maybe a few others. Focal makes good stuff but I don’t know about their ultra-pricey models, but their lower end stuff is too flawed in ways my ears don’t like. Magico seems to measure well but are stupidly overpriced for what you get.

I’ve heard B&W‘s flagships, and they’re honestly pretty bad compared to monitors a fraction of the price. The frequency response is heavily colored and the off axis is a mess. They are extremely shrill and fatiguing and physically pain my ears if I listen too long, whereas I can listen to a well-calibrated Neumann or Genelec all day long with no fatigue.

I’ve heard high end Magicos and owned Revel Salon2’s. The Magico sounded quite good, but not really any better than the Salon2’s at least, despite the Magicos costing 5x more. And the Salon2’s are fantastic, but Genelec 8351/8361 are more flawless still (though very different beam width, whereas the Salon2’s have a exceptionally wide beam).

So the real difference you get from good audiophile speakers (beyond aesthetics perhaps) is that many (but not all) of them provide a uniquely wide beam, which makes stereo recordings sound immersive in a way that medium beam speakers (as most good studio monitors are) from the front alone simply cannot match. So for those who don’t want to set up a multichannel surround system, wide beam stereo speakers still have a place IMO.

But please do not confuse high price or other hifi prestige branding as an indication of good sound quality. It most certainly is not. There are a disgustingly huge number of horrible speakers out there that cost a fortune. And people buy them because they assume price means it’s better.

Although I have never heard Genelec speakers (Amir give them a high rating which supports your comments.) I also support your comments on Magico and Focal, especially the former. I will also add that audiophiles who have no interest in overpriced furniture and are not affected with the WAF should take a look at pro amps; they don't all have noisy fans and some are as good or better then the elitist tweaky brands then seem to cherish. NSF (no snob factor.)
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,314
Likes
4,427
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
Some pro 'studio' models are or used to be tools designed to magnify flaws in the recordings, so may well not translate to relaxed domestic listening. Conversely I read a thread once where pro's discussed many 'domestic' speakers as sounding too 'comfortable' and warm toned.

I suspect today the boundaries are blending somewhat and my tired old ears now definitely need something more explicit as so many domestic boxes sound too safe and 'nice' - whyI was so surprised by thje latest issue Harbeth XD's which *finally* seem to have woken up without blasting the upper mids and highs out crudely (no idea about responses though and exporting from the UK would increase prices alarmingly I suspect). I now wonder if dispersion patterns are more important in a domestic situation as not all of us have capacious rooms.
 

klangfilm

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Messages
25
Likes
30
you listen 1000 things to find the good.

Not at all...
Audio/ musical have always been a passion. I like to listen to new systems to discover new things and discuss with other people because you can learn from them.
Kh310 are not perfect. To be honest if I still had a big room, I would have kept my Klangfilm Eurodyn but you need also to add subwoofer and to correct FR.
For me the FR is very important because of it's not ok, you won't be able to appreciate lots of recordings and music, and when there is too much bass, highs, I find that the speakers are tiring.
I simplify of course.
But I would be interested to know other experience and try to identify the reasons behind.
 

atsmusic

Active Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2021
Messages
109
Likes
85
Some pro 'studio' models are or used to be tools designed to magnify flaws in the recordings, so may well not translate to relaxed domestic listening. Conversely I read a thread once where pro's discussed many 'domestic' speakers as sounding too 'comfortable' and warm toned.

I suspect today the boundaries are blending somewhat and my tired old ears now definitely need something more explicit as so many domestic boxes sound too safe and 'nice' - whyI was so surprised by thje latest issue Harbeth XD's which *finally* seem to have woken up without blasting the upper mids and highs out crudely (no idea about responses though and exporting from the UK would increase prices alarmingly I suspect). I now wonder if dispersion patterns are more important in a domestic situation as not all of us have capacious rooms.


I never heard of studio monitors that are made to magnify flaws. You want an accurate speaker to monitor, not one that magnifies anything. I been making music for over 20 years and never heard this before in my life.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
The FR in bass are less important than the decay.

I have K+H O300 and KH420 for the buy for the measurements and the lack of ear fatigue

but

The ear fatigue:
Listen too loud and to long
The loudness war mastering listened too Loud.
A irregular decay in the Mid.
A upper bass bump narrow and accented on the disc and In the live music (for me)
The age of the ears.
The stress
The headache.
Spending a lot of time in a noisy environment.

My sensiblity to the ears fatigue has increase with the age (54). When i was 40 and before I could listen loudly for hours (85 db(c) on average). Now in the same room, i can not anymore (73 db(c)).

With the same track, the same spl level, the same speaker and room i can feel or not feel ears fatigue.
 
Last edited:

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
I never heard of studio monitors that are made to magnify flaws. You want an accurate speaker to monitor, not one that magnifies anything. I been making music for over 20 years and never heard this before in my life.
The majority of brands - hifi and pro- make speakers to reproduce sound with as little color as possible depending on the cost of development VS the sell price.
Audionote is an exception beyond other exception
 

shal

Active Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2019
Messages
119
Likes
122
Location
Rennes, France
My guess on hearing fatigue on Pro equipment is that they have less distortion.
So people increase the level without awareness of the high level produced.
With standard speaker they stop to increase the level as the distortion increases (this can be a conscious sensation or not)
 

klangfilm

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Messages
25
Likes
30
Many people assimilate flat FR to boring and tend to increase level to get some excitement.
And It's not by accident if some speakers don't have a flat FR as many customer choose them during a quick comparaison...
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
My guess on hearing fatigue on Pro equipment is that they have less distortion.
So people increase the level without awareness of the high level produced.
With standard speaker they stop to increase the level as the distortion increases (this can be a conscious sensation or not)

The first theorical quality of the speaker pro is the lake of ear fatigue.
The less distortion, with the bigger not with the nearfield and budget monitor.

The ancestor of the K+H O300, The O198 has plenty of distortion in bass.

Lots of mastering studio use hifi speakers. Some EDM producers use laptop speakers or budget monitors.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
Many people assimilate flat FR to boring and tend to increase level to get some excitement.
And It's not by accident if some speakers don't have a flat FR as many customer choose them during a quick comparaison...
Flat Fr at listening position ?
Many customers would choose speakers based on sound criteria? i never convinced by this. To avoid being influenced by my demons, the K+H O300 and KH420 were chosen for their measurements.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,051
Likes
12,150
Location
London
A speakers performance is entirely characterised by its measurements, sadly many ‘high-end’ loudspeakers don’t appear to have seen a microphone at any point in their development.
Keith
 

Leporello

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
Messages
401
Likes
806
How many times do I have to state the loudness and clarity of studio monitors is great in a studio when performing a task in a studio, but tiring to listen to in a personal listening room, so they're not for me for personal listening? Where are your precise objective measurements? How much did you have to "tweak" your various studio monitors to reduce listening fatigue? Do you have a before/after graph showing your "tweak"? Where is your ABX testing result of the change the tweak accomplished?

Finally, why can't I simply say, as I have been saying, that I see their value for performing studio work, but they hurt my ears so I would not personally own them for personal listening?
Your message is ambiguous. Do you mean to say that studio monitors in living room sound tiring to you or is that meant as a general statement that applies to everyone? I certainly do not find my studio monitors in my living room fatiguing.
 
OP
Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,125
Likes
5,355
I guess what I meant was
Can a studio monitor compete with such a beast with:
Multiple drivers vs 2-3 max of studio monitors , much bigger than the average monitor, and obviously much more expensive.
D-tvwamXsAAltS1.jpg
 
Top Bottom