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Help with selecting turntable, cartridge and a phono pre-amplifier

Only for beginners that would be confused by some opinions... fine line stylus worth it.
That's not only a scientific fact but also proven by abx tests made it by myself and the major part of vinyl users.

Search for the information.

Recommendations? Audio Technica vm95ml.. 150 usd the full cartridge. A bargain.
 
Only for beginners that would be confused by some opinions... fine line stylus worth it.
That's not only a scientific fact but also proven by abx tests made it by myself and the major part of vinyl users.

Search for the information.

Recommendations? Audio Technica vm95ml.. 150 usd the full cartridge. A bargain.
Not only because of the following, but in regard to the (not so well) kept record collection also:

=> https://thevinylpress.com/precision-aqueous-cleaning-of-vinyl-records-3rd-edition/

Thing is, an elliptical or even sharper needle may rip the groove at a different contact point (line), by that kind of hovering over the previous wear. See Fig5 in above linked article, the there linked pdf respectively. (Not my invention, it's in the text also, and elsewhere.)

But if the record is not so well kept, well, some greasy fluffy dirt may be in order. That's only one of the endless if's and then's with vinyl. To spend on it feels, to me, like putting money into the collection box in a church. I'm afraid it is as effective. Wish you all the best, though.
 
I use that formula to clean my records.
Amazing!
My RCM is collecting dust since I began to use the Neil Antin formula.
Cleaning the records certainly makes a difference. Regarding wear, note that a 1.5 g stylus compared to one at 4.5 g isn’t really a fair comparison, I assume. The one tracking at 4.5 g will have greater mass inertia to justify that tracking force, which makes the difference easier to understand. The destructive forces originate in the intertia ...
I don’t even want to know what happens when the lighter stylus is a bit gunked up and runs over a clump of sticky dust. Well, hopefully they won’t be buying any new records anytime soon.

Always keep things nice and clean.
 
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Could you show some results? The original question was, if a change from the red to the blue would make a difference with presumably elder records. I like vinyl, because I grew up with it. Anyway, I question the benefit of an optimized system--and compared to a mere streaming DAC is is a literal "system" to the user in its own right, considering the cost, when compared to the sound quality delivered by even the worst digital equipment. Objectively--objective as in "money".

In short: welcome to vinyl, but don't start the spending as if it were 40y (uups: 50y) back :)
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For sound-bites, try Lowbeats.de (you may need a translator for the text). They don't seem to do detailed objective testing now, but a few years ago, some of the AT VM95 and VM500/VM700 range and also, the Ortofon 2M models, were given full tech testing and soundbites were posted.

The 2M range is a better-body update I believe, on the Super OM range that came before (and the 500 range which never seemed as popular in the UK sadly). I'd suggest the 2M Red is a Super OM10/510mk2 level, the Blue roughly OM20/520mk2* and the Bronze, a livelier sounding version (for whatever reason) of the OM30/530mk2.

In Ortofon's case, the outer mounting body really does seem to make some difference and the OM body did have slight upper hundred Hz resonances which came through in all the HiFi Choice tests done at the time forty years back (worldradiohistory UK page has links to all the early 'Choice books). The 500 series from the early 90s (?) attempted to sort this with a solid body style and the mk2 versions reduced the compliance to allow 1.5g tracking forces I recall from chats with the then Ortofon rep.

I like the 2M Red and love the 2M Bronze, which is slightly 'snappier sounding' than my slightly 'genteel-toned' Super OM30 here. I also have a 520mk2 and a pal who bought and tried to tame a 2M Blue, confirmed that both have a slightly 'wild' sonic character at hf, bordering on excess if one's tweeters are not refined or that well balanced. yes I know, it's all subjective, but I share anyway. The OM20 was a well balanced all-rounder I remember

I like my vinyl ideally to be neutral to lively, rather than dull and ploddy as say, Rega's previous generation of Rega-made MM types were (I have a low hours original Elys here to confirm, accepting they did improve a tiny bit over the years). Their posher-made current ND models are now routinely supplied and fitted (I think) to decks from the factory and, according to a trusted pal currently using a Planar 3 and ND3, said this cartridge model needs a few LP sides to settle down (accepting he's also getting used to it) but still has the 'relaxed' mid-hf region of the Elys2 and Exact2, but clearer than previously. £200 for a bonded elliptical is a bit much I feel, no matter how well the diamond is ground, polished and set and how neatly the hand-set cartridge internals are these days.

The AT VM540 and VM740 are seemingly the same internals and both share the same stylus assembly. The responses are slightly different in the Lowbeats review, despite using the same stylus I gather, the 740 having a slightly more relaxed hf response which shows in the sound-bites, so not imagined or irrelevant. The VMx740 looks to be fifty quid cheaper than its immediate predecessor and if basically the same as its predecessor (the metallic mount has had its tail tweaked by the looks of things), should be an absolute bargain I reckon.

Loads more I could try to add (with sincere apologies), but pickup cartridges do first rely on a decent stylus profile as long as it doesn't interfere with electrical and mechanical 'things' in the rest of the design. Vintage Shures were a huge compromise of resonances and electrical characteristics, carefully optimised for a good end result. This is why, I suspect, the otherwise excellent Jico replacements usually seem to change the tonal balance from the original (more hf is better, right?)
 
Many records I own since 80s and with the proper care sounds fabulous today.
Other ones weren't lucky, they were borrowed and used with wasted conical styluses and surely out of vtf, etc. That records shows the classical wear signs.

But, properly handled records have a great lifespan, and many people saying that records doesn't stand 100 plays (as an example) are plainly wrong.
 
For sound-bites, try Lowbeats.de (you may need a translator for the text). They don't seem to do detailed objective testing now, but a few years ago, some of the AT VM95 and VM500/VM700 range and also, the Ortofon 2M models, were given full tech testing and soundbites were posted.
Thanks a lot for chiming in. Yep, that site I know. And I did compare the AT line from conical to, what was it, shibata or so. The differences were tiny using subjectively linear neutral headphones and all. But maybe it was from the outer grooves.
 
Conicals do lose hf towards end of side and it's not just measurable either.

Percussive music with cymbal work is where tip profiles really show I find. Also, surface noise or should I say, the *effects* of surface noise are better with a more sophisticated tip.

There was a great video with good sound, comparing the AT OC9 models, starting with bonded elliptical, then naked diamond elliptical, then the fine-line ML and then the Shibata. Up-top, clear differences were heard, the naked sounding a little cleaner, the ML almost razor-sharp and the Shibata calming it down but with the clarity unchanged. I believe the humble AT VM95 models do similar, although the VM95ML seems to be the sweet spot in the range cost-wise. My vinyl is mostly rock orientated, so the tip profile really does make a difference for me.
 
Conicals do lose hf towards end of side and it's not just measurable either.
=> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ridge-measurement-library.46108/#post-1643770

The missing differences are documented on this site in the above linked collection of measurement data. More so the general irrelevance of any stylus shape is best documented - 3% to 10% harmonic distortion @5kHz, raising to well above that with higher frequency is something to condsider.
Smaller differences of +/- one percent from stylus shape, but tracking error, less successful pressing the vinyl at the exact correct temperature, the age of the pressing matrix, ...

The manufacturers' advertising data is taken, if real at all*, under isolating, idealized conditions, and still won't yield more than a one percent advantage, while the cantilever's resonance may degrade the performance by three times that. Shure's V15 is a consistent good performer, as we all knew back in the day.

Anyway, I keep my position, that expenses in formerly accepted amount cannot be justified today anymore. We know better, as we as the people can do the measurements ourselves.

But behold; I'm not into condemming the subjective approach. How else would one address a vastly limited format? Only to promote the unreal marketing in recommendations is what I'm speaking against.

Keep your records clean ;-)

* see the example above, where a 4,5g tracking force conical was compared to a 1,5g exotic; to show the advantage of what actually ;-)
 
=> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ridge-measurement-library.46108/#post-1643770

The missing differences are documented on this site in the above linked collection of measurement data. More so the general irrelevance of any stylus shape is best documented - 3% to 10% harmonic distortion @5kHz, raising to well above that with higher frequency is something to condsider.
Smaller differences of +/- one percent from stylus shape, but tracking error, less successful pressing the vinyl at the exact correct temperature, the age of the pressing matrix, ...

The manufacturers' advertising data is taken, if real at all*, under isolating, idealized conditions, and still won't yield more than a one percent advantage, while the cantilever's resonance may degrade the performance by three times that. Shure's V15 is a consistent good performer, as we all knew back in the day.

Anyway, I keep my position, that expenses in formerly accepted amount cannot be justified today anymore. We know better, as we as the people can do the measurements ourselves.

But behold; I'm not into condemming the subjective approach. How else would one address a vastly limited format? Only to promote the unreal marketing in recommendations is what I'm speaking against.

Keep your records clean ;-)

* see the example above, where a 4,5g tracking force conical was compared to a 1,5g exotic; to show the advantage of what actually ;-)

you'll keep your position under any circunstances, that's clear :-)

so, with all my respect, see that nobody is discussing that with you (it's worthless) and please we can continue with the topic .
 
The missing differences are documented on this site in the above linked collection of measurement data.
You do realize that the overwhelming majority of those measurements are of tracks at the far outer grooves?
 
Thank you very much for all the answers! Haven't made any decisions yet, but I took the SL-1500C also under consideration. The AT LP-120 is a bit too much out of my taste range I feel but the 1500C I could probably go with. It would also give a me a chance to split purchases because it has the built in pre-amp so I could use it already for a few weeks while waiting to purchase a proper pre-amp and upgrade to other cartridge later. Will try to visit a store soon where I could hopefully get to see and try out the 1500C and Rega too if possible.
I actually started reading this thread just to see what your decision might be but I got to this post and was wondering what the differences in the AT vs Technics models here had to do with taste range? Since the AT is more a clone of the Technics styling to start, just made me stop and go, what?
 
I actually started reading this thread just to see what your decision might be but I got to this post and was wondering what the differences in the AT vs Technics models here had to do with taste range? Since the AT is more a clone of the Technics styling to start, just made me stop and go, what?
The 1500c doesn’t have all the dj controls
 
On the choice of stylus shape which might generate elevated cost.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of those measurements are of tracks at the far outer grooves?
That answers the question, why the differences in the distortion figures are so little. But it doesn't answer the question why the distortion is so high to begin with. Even at a relatively low 5kHz only few cartriges realize HD2 below 3%. (And those are decidedly of humble, well established design, e/g Shure V15.) There's something else that generates HD, not connected to stylus shape. Given this background of real measurements the question is raised if a more elaborated stylus shape would improve the outcome. For the time being there's just marketing blurb over (invalid) plausibility arguments and sighted enthusiasm for the ever more expensive type--just as if it were still year 1975 ...
 
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The 1500c doesn’t have all the dj controls

Well, that are speed controls, not something originally created for dj... dj takes the speed control as a tool and created a new era with that.

Technics created that new dj era with their robust and precise turntables. Imagine a stretched belt running the platter with a very low torque.

But, that controls are speed controls very welcome in 70s / 80s when you can had records with speed problems (Billy Joel first record, as an example, fixed in 1983) or turntables with speed problems.

The new 1200s models have a button to lock the speed disabling the slider. So, is a question of taste really.
 
Well, that are speed controls, not something originally created for dj... dj takes the speed control as a tool and created a new era with that.

Technics created that new dj era with their robust and precise turntables. Imagine a stretched belt running the platter with a very low torque.

But, that controls are speed controls very welcome in 70s / 80s when you can had records with speed problems (Billy Joel first record, as an example, fixed in 1983) or turntables with speed problems.

The new 1200s models have a button to lock the speed disabling the slider. So, is a question of taste really.
They’ve taken the cueing light out too, removed the strobe light, and strobe dots from platter so the speed control system works differently too.

Looks really nice and clean if you don’t need variable speed for shellac or mixing
 
You do realize that the overwhelming majority of those measurements are of tracks at the far outer grooves?
Btw: the measurements might be taken with increased record speed, 45/s instead of 33/s. That would simulate the inner groove's reduced wavelength and the benefit of ML/Shibata should be seen. For the sake of science ;-)
 
They’ve taken the cueing light out too, removed the strobe light, and strobe dots from platter so the speed control system works differently too.

Looks really nice and clean if you don’t need variable speed for shellac or mixing

Well, that elements are part of the speed control, that's why I didn't mentioned specifically. But, yes, I lived that era, so maybe for me aren't "strange" stuff and I didn't see it as "clunky". But, taste is taste.
 
They’ve taken the cueing light out too, removed the strobe light, and strobe dots from platter so the speed control system works differently too.

Looks really nice and clean if you don’t need variable speed for shellac or mixing
One of my local record shops (yes, there's two!!!) has a white SL1500C/2M Red, Marantz 'several hundred quid' amp with matching CD player and LS50s set high (with a sub I believe but don't know which one). The sound is delightful, arguably due the the sub re-enforcing the lower frequencies.

The SL1500C does look superb if that's your bag. It seems slimmer, even if it isn't when compared to its distant ancestors and it's as elegant as a deck like this can be. It's now cheaper all in in the UK than a Rega 3 with cartridge and Fono Mini phono stage and after all these years being all subjective about it, I'd politely suggest the choice is a no-brainer if the deck is purchased over these parts from 'John Lewis' with their excellent warranty and no-fuss service.

Sorry to bang on about it, but vinyl at this level is all about compromising one thing against another. The Rega RB330 tonearm despite plain looks is 'internally engineered' up with the very best ever designed and made, but on a P3 basic deck, any advantage it has is severely diluted I'd suggest by the drive and the cartridges usually sold with it these days. Technics did apparently try to improve the basic tonearm as best they could and subjectively, one can fit all manner of pickups, some costing rather more than the complete deck, with no subjective effects spoiling the investment.

Sorry if I/we are drifting way off topic here. Vinyl is now a purely subjective thing as distortion in the format is so high, it tends to make the anal 'ASR-Style' of discussion totally irrelevant really I'd suggest. I used to spend hours turning felt mats upside down, swapping fuses for 'directionality' trying drive belts (on *that* blasted Scottish made turntable) upside down and inside out for 'best' perceived sound - and then I found a format so much better all this became gaslight if truth to the recording/mastering is the goal!!!!

Hope the OP has been sorted now and that they're enjoying music, rather than reading anal tech chats from people who wouldn't have a vinyl system even if it was gifted :D
 
Sorry if I/we are drifting way off topic here. Vinyl is now a purely subjective thing as distortion in the format is so high, it tends to make the anal 'ASR-Style' of discussion totally irrelevant ...
That's a matter of fact, and part of the fun of it. Regain subjectivity, the feel of a well assembled system that exposes itself to the senses, view included. The analysis of a codec won't either compete with the complexities of the stylus' elastic movement in a vinyl groove that was scratched by another into brittle shellack. For the sake of peace of mind, one could place a little block of gold next to the tonearm, paid for by the savings from not buying an overly expensive stylus. Or rhodium, or rhenium … diamonds are a girl's best friends.

Hope the OP has been sorted now and that they're enjoying music, rather than reading anal tech chats from people who wouldn't have a vinyl system even if it was gifted :D
:cool:
 
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