Help with selecting turntable, cartridge and a phono pre-amplifier

[Heinrich]

In case the purchase is still pending, I would recommend the Denon DF37 or DF47. Direct drive with tacho, an electromagnetically dampened tonearm which is a really great feature, and a well thought out operation overall. Of course used, there was nothing to be improved after.

Grado Green because it is a moving iron type pickup, selected they say, which should keep you away from badly aligned devices. MI has way lesser noise than standard MM (AT, Ortophon, etc). MC performance is a myth anyway. The MI is extremely tolerant in regard to the pF seen at the output, ..., can switch/upgrade stylus, ...

Together with the Fosi X5 pre-amp the system will be as noiseless as can be according to sheer physical limits, no distortion, no tedious match to the Grado needed and so forth.

Call it a day, and listen ;-) for way below 500. It doesn'te get better, except for the nerd nimbus.

 

[Dovydas]

In case the purchase is still pending, I would recommend the Denon DF37 or DF47. Direct drive with tacho, an electromagnetically dampened tonearm which is a really great feature, and a well thought out operation overall. Of course used, there was nothing to be improved after.

Grado Green because it is a moving iron type pickup, selected they say, which should keep you away from badly aligned devices. MI has way lesser noise than standard MM (AT, Ortophon, etc). MC performance is a myth anyway. The MI is extremely tolerant in regard to the pF seen at the output, ..., can switch/upgrade stylus, ...

Together with the Fosi X5 pre-amp the system will be as noiseless as can be according to sheer physical limits, no distortion, no tedious match to the Grado needed and so forth.

Call it a day, and listen ;-) for way below 500. It doesn'te get better, except for the nerd nimbus.

Hey, thanks for such a detailed argument, however I've already ordered Technics SL-1500c. At the beginning I'm going to use it with a stock cartridge and Denon A10h pre-amp. Not sure if there's any advantages with using separate phono pre-amp?

 

[Heinrich]

Hey, thanks for such a detailed argument, however I've already ordered Technics SL-1500c. At the beginning I'm going to use it with a stock cartridge and Denon A10h pre-amp. Not sure if there's any advantages with using separate phono pre-amp?

Sure, gives me the opportunity to correct the type ID: Denon DP 37F / DP 47F, and other from that series. "Servo controlled" is the key word, and some research of course. Only the more costly specimen show off a cool factor today, the UFO style. But the tech/ as such is worth it objectively.

Have fun!

 

[DVDdoug]

Not sure if there's any advantages with using separate phono pre-amp?

Probably not.* Some preamps are noisier than others but the record's surface noise is always worse (assuming the preamp isn't terrible).

There can also be errors in the RIAA equalization but the frequency response of the cartridge is usually worse and more variable. And if you are playing records from the analog days, the frequency balance was highly variable, and again, the record was usually the weak link. (I have no idea about modern records.)

One potential advantage is that Technics knows the capacitance of the turntable wiring and the preamp and how the particular supplied cartridge behaves with the particular capacitance load so they should be optimized together. We usually can find the recommended capacitance for the cartridge and sometimes we know the input capacitance of the preamp but the turntable wiring and interconnect cables are usually unknown.


* Except maybe if you get the Parks Waxwing which has digital click and pop reduction (and I think additional noise reduction) plus some other settings/adjustments.

 

[DSJR]

Just in case anyone is passing through this thread and using either an AT91, 3600l, Rega Carbon and similar pickups, there have been many comments that the AT91/Carbon and 3600L are the same in different colours. According to a 2017 AT cartridge catalogue, the ATN91 stylus is stated to be an upgrade as it tracks at a lower rate (around 2g is fine) than the 3600L which is designed for 3 - 4g downforce -

Page 38

https://gpoint-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/AT-2017_Phono_Cartridges_Brochure.pdf

The blasted specs still show no obvious difference in the 91 and 3600L however, and even the specified compliance is the same

Hope the OP is enjoying his technics

 

[DSJR]

Hey, thanks for such a detailed argument, however I've already ordered Technics SL-1500c. At the beginning I'm going to use it with a stock cartridge and Denon A10h pre-amp. Not sure if there's any advantages with using separate phono pre-amp?

The 1500C here in the UK, comes with a 2M Red, which is a lively but stylus-upgradeable model. I suspect the built-in phono stage will be absolutely fine, but audiophiles like to try different things... I'm a huge fan of the 2M Bronze, bypassing the Blue model, but that's for much later and having saved up for it

If the 1500C is anything like its fifty-year-old illustrious predecessor, it'll see all of us out and still have loads more life left in it

 

[mike70]

Please upgrade the red stylus to blue, at least.
ortofon is pricey compared to AT, but, that's another stuff.

 

[Heinrich]

Please upgrade the red stylus to blue, at least.
ortofon is pricey compared to AT, but, that's another stuff.

Just out of curiosity, vinyl is a comparably very limited format. The measurement, even under close to perfect conditions, show hilarious results. From the vast amount of disturbances everywhere it is clearly understood, that any choice is a matter of taste. Fair enough, subjectivity rules.
But what would make you chose blue over red? Hope it‘s not magical thinking, in that ritual like sayings, e/g diamond cantilever supersedes aluminium, take the lead? ;-)

(Own two platters myself, took a major investment lately in buying a new drive belt plus a new stylus at 40 bucks, combined.)

 

[DSJR]

Just out of curiosity, vinyl is a comparably very limited format. The measurement, even under close to perfect conditions, show hilarious results. From the vast amount of disturbances everywhere it is clearly understood, that any choice is a matter of taste. Fair enough, subjectivity rules.
But what would make you chose blue over red? Hope it‘s not magical thinking, in that ritual like sayings, e/g diamond cantilever supersedes aluminium, take the lead? ;-)

(Own two platters myself, took a major investment lately in buying a new drive belt plus a new stylus at 40 bucks, combined.)

Vinyl these days is very little to do with hard ASR-Style objectivism. To this day, I still love the ritualistic aspects of playing the sodding things.

 

[Corvuscorone]

This Finnish magazine has reviewed six turntables, including a phono amplifier and cartridge, for around a thousand euros. The review also includes some measurements.

VERTAILUTESTI: Tonnin levysoittimet | AVPlus

Noin tuhannen euron hintaluokassa pitäisi saada jo soitin, joka tarjoaa laadukasta mekaanista rakennetta ja äänentoistoa selvästi perustason yläpuolella…

avplus.fi

 

[mike70]

Just out of curiosity, vinyl is a comparably very limited format. The measurement, even under close to perfect conditions, show hilarious results. From the vast amount of disturbances everywhere it is clearly understood, that any choice is a matter of taste. Fair enough, subjectivity rules.
But what would make you chose blue over red? Hope it‘s not magical thinking, in that ritual like sayings, e/g diamond cantilever supersedes aluminium, take the lead? ;-)

(Own two platters myself, took a major investment lately in buying a new drive belt plus a new stylus at 40 bucks, combined.)

The difference between stylus cuts have a deep science background.
I understand maybe you don't know about it, and I don't want to explain it really... if you are curious about it, search for the right information. You'll find it.

The results are totally audible and recognized in many abx tests I do it myself with digitized tracks only changing the stylus.

 

[Heinrich]

The difference between stylus cuts have a deep science background.
I understand maybe you don't know about it, and I don't want to explain it really... if you are curious about it, search for the right information. You'll find it.

The results are totally audible and recognized in many abx tests I do it myself with digitized tracks only changing the stylus.

Sure, it once was 'big science' to squeeze out the last bit of fidelity from new(!), made for purpose(!) recordings pressed into the vinyl. I argue that in everyday use the benefits were marginal if at all existent.

What we have is a quite complicated mechanism on, if any fidelity is addressed, nano meter scale. Talking about -60dB of a few micrometers--or less. The cartridge database on this board shows it, my own anecdotal measurements show it. There's a ton of thermal noise, hum galore, klicks and pops, uncertainty in frequency response, pretty well limited dynamics.

The stylus cut is just one gear in all the mess. Horizontal and vertical tracking angle is another one. They combine. There once has been a funny rant of a guy of lastname Andreoli, which revealed the essentially ignored connection of the two. We had it all in discussion several times.

We may argue again, if treble distortion should be toned down by a full percent, only to land at 9,5% at best (see the cartridge database!). I would say, chose your poison by taste ;-)

(Not against vinyl at all, but promoting humble realism. Ain't worth to keep the money grab operational in zombie mode. That trick shall be over. No offense)

Edit, for the fun of it: when I think about it, distortions of 0.1% (−60 dB) — which would be terrible in digital — bring us into a realm close to quantum effects; vinyl and the quantum limit? Only halfway kidding

 

[mike70]

Sure, it once was 'big science' to squeeze out the last bit of fidelity from new(!), made for purpose(!) recordings pressed into the vinyl. I argue that in everyday use the benefits were marginal if at all existent.

no, it's not.

only changing a conical / bonded elliptical stylus for a microline / shibata (with everything else the same) have real audible differences ... by nude ear and by abx comparation.
tracking, voices and high frequency details are improved, not in a marginal way.

 

[Heinrich]

no, it's not.

Could you show some results? The original question was, if a change from the red to the blue would make a difference with presumably elder records. I like vinyl, because I grew up with it. Anyway, I question the benefit of an optimized system--and compared to a mere streaming DAC is is a literal "system" to the user in its own right, considering the cost, when compared to the sound quality delivered by even the worst digital equipment. Objectively--objective as in "money".

In short: welcome to vinyl, but don't start the spending as if it were 40y (uups: 50y) back
.

 

[mike70]

Could you show some results? The original question was, if a change from the red to the blue would make a difference with presumably elder records. I like vinyl, because I grew up with it. Anyway, I question the benefit of an optimized system--and compared to a mere streaming DAC is is a literal "system" to the user in its own right, considering the cost, when compared to the sound quality delivered by even the worst digital equipment. Objectively--objective as in "money".

In short: welcome to vinyl, but don't start the spending as if it were 40y (uups: 50y) back
.

You're talking about other stuff. I enjoy digital and analog and I care nothing about the digital superiority when I listen to records.

I don't think what I do is what anyone else must do (I learned that very young indeed), I respect personal preferences with humility, even more on a topic specific to analog systems.

So, I understand what you say, but I think is absolutely worthless to the topic. There's no ignorants here with enlightenment needs, only people with likes and preferences different than you. Simple.

 

[Ben Jenssen]

I now have a good vinyl system after ~25 yrs without one, and I've racked up my old album collection from storage, most of it. I've bought a turntable, a cartridge, a MC stage, and a few accessories. This is how I spent my money:

~$100 on a used Rega 1
~$200 on a used Rega Fono MC and RIAA stage
~$350 on a new Ortofon MC-X10 cartridge

I run the output into a Topping E2x2 ADC, and everytime I play a record, I hit 'rec' on my mac to capture it. I later apply a tiny bit of processing, essentially iZotope RX11 Declicker to get rid of clicks from scratches, which works fantastically without ruining the audio in any way. This way, I'm now a good way along to getting my record collection digitized.

I think it sounds great. And I think it's mostly due to the Ortofon and Rega pre. Have a listen:

Platearkiv - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[Heinrich]

This is what you said.

Please upgrade the red stylus to blue, at least.

The difference between stylus cuts have a deep science background.

I asked for the science, but the response is outstanding.

You also say:

I don't think what I do is what anyone else must do (I learned that very young indeed), I respect personal preferences with humility ...

What I said is, reiterated, that vinyl is a quite limited format. There are so many interconnected sources of degradation, that it doesn't make too much sense to spend real money on every detail individually--as "we" did in the past, when the vinyl was the only practical media. Especially if a record collection is already at hand, coming with natural implications in terms of tear and wear. Sayonara

 

[Bland_username42069]

The argument - vinyl is limited etc - that’s fine - but if I want to play things that aren’t on streaming - makes the argument completely redundant.

 

[mike70]

This is what you said.



I asked for the science, but the response is outstanding.

You also say:

What I said is, reiterated, that vinyl is a quite limited format. There are so many interconnected sources of degradation, that it doesn't make too much sense to spend real money on every detail individually--as "we" did in the past, when the vinyl was the only practical media. Especially if a record collection is already at hand, coming with natural implications in terms of tear and wear. Sayonara

Forget it, go on.

 

[Heinrich]

The argument - vinyl is limited etc - that’s fine - but if I want to play things that aren’t on streaming - makes the argument completely redundant.

It wasn't about vinyl or not in any way. Question was, if an 'update' to a severely more costly stylus is justified. I'd say that the vinyl user shouldn't fall in the trap that the industry installed in the 70s to 80s. My argument basically is, that vinyl is so much limited, that in every imaginable case the sense of 'fidelity to the source' is an imagination. The tiny benefit of a sharp stylus when used with a given record collection might relax the effort of mentally rebuilding 'the truth' in some record proportionally. But is it worth it to run into vastly diminishing returns as far as we did many decades ago, say buying into the claim that a 1000$$ needle would be as much better than a 30$$ specimen? Your conclusion, my stance: should be pocket money, not more.