Help with selecting turntable, cartridge and a phono pre-amplifier

[mike70]

Thanks to a South American traveling friend, we "discovered" Malbec before... most Amurricans did.
But, heck, I am still enamored of good ol' California (red) Zinfandels, too -- even though they have minimal cred in the oenophile world.

I live in South America ... if you liked Malbec (argentinian, and yes, very good), try also Carmenere (chilean).
I also like the uruguayan Tannat (Stagnari is the winnery name).

 

[Corvuscorone]

I have the Rega P3 and P2, about five years old, and the Pro-Ject Dubut III, about 20 years old. All have worked flawlessly and are doing their job. The Rega P3 had to have a spacer between the tonearm and the body in order to properly mount the Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge. The Rega P2 had the Goldring G-1012 cartridge pre-mounted when I bought it used. The cartridge didn't need a spacer or additional mat for alignment. The Pro-Ject has the Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge as is and didn't need any additional work on the tonearm height either.

If I were buying a cheap combination now that sounds good, I would probably get the Rega P2 or one of the Pro-Ject debut series models and the Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge. Another option would be a good used direct drive turntable from the Technics 1200 -series or the best Kenwood, Denon or Victor turntables from the 1980s-90s. However, it is difficult to assess the condition and durability of used ones unless you can examine them before buying. The safest choice would probably be a new turntable.

I would not buy new cheap Audio-Technica or other direct drive ones. According to users, they have had many problems and their quality control is poor. Almost all tonearms comes from the Hanpin factory and the turntables are also manufactured in China. Both good and bad stuff comes from China, so perhaps the quality is already better in turntables these days.

 

[goat76]

It's a good catch, thanks. I missed it before. Would I loose anything performance wise by picking Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1500C-K or even Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1200MK7?

I have never compared these turntables side by side, so I don't really know if you lose anything performance-wise.

I was thinking of buying the 1500C at first. Still, as I never intended to use the built-in preamp anyway and was pretty set on using the one in my Linn Akurate DSM (which is supposed to be pretty good), and also wanted a better cartridge than the one installed with the 1500C, I decided to go with the 1200GR2 instead. The 1200GR2 seems to be a bit more robust, and as I care about "silly" things like that, I would rather put some of my money toward a supposedly higher build quality than paying for things I'm not gonna use. I also appreciate the way the VTA works on the 1200GR2, which appears to be a more effective solution than the one for the 1500C. The heavier platter and the stronger motor are other differences, but if those things translate to better performance, I don't know.

All the above little differences made me go for the 1200GR2. I even looked at the 1200G for a minute, but that one is way more expensive, and I believe the 1200GR2 is probably the sweet spot in the Technics range. Besides that, I also put a lot of money towards a high-quality moving coil cartridge, an AT33PTG/II, which sounds really great.

 

[DSJR]

I have the Rega P3 and P2, about five years old, and the Pro-Ject Dubut III, about 20 years old. All have worked flawlessly and are doing their job. The Rega P3 had to have a spacer between the tonearm and the body in order to properly mount the Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge. The Rega P2 had the Goldring G-1012 cartridge pre-mounted when I bought it used. The cartridge didn't need a spacer or additional mat for alignment. The Pro-Ject has the Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge as is and didn't need any additional work on the tonearm height either.

If I were buying a cheap combination now that sounds good, I would probably get the Rega P2 or one of the Pro-Ject debut series models and the Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge. Another option would be a good used direct drive turntable from the Technics 1200 -series or the best Kenwood, Denon or Victor turntables from the 1980s-90s. However, it is difficult to assess the condition and durability of used ones unless you can examine them before buying. The safest choice would probably be a new turntable.

I would not buy new cheap Audio-Technica or other direct drive ones. According to users, they have had many problems and their quality control is poor. Almost all tonearms comes from the Hanpin factory and the turntables are also manufactured in China. Both good and bad stuff comes from China, so perhaps the quality is already better in turntables these days.

Do remember the RB tonearm tubes are *tapered* and look a*se-down when level... I wouldn't have thought a Nagaoka pickup was so tall as to need the arm raising in all honesty, especially a seemingly non-fussy model like an MP200?

 

[Corvuscorone]

Do remember the RB tonearm tubes are *tapered* and look a*se-down when level... I wouldn't have thought a Nagaoka pickup was so tall as to need the arm raising in all honesty, especially a seemingly non-fussy model like an MP200?

The MP-200 is a tall model that requires the tonearm to be raised on Rega turntables. This has been discussed in a few YouTube videos. Ortofon made new, lower 2MR cartridges so that they fit directly on Rega turntables without raising the tonearm. I have noticed that the Rega tonearm becomes a little thinner. I actually raised the tonearm a little less than recommended.

 

[DSJR]

I have the remains of an MP11 here (no diamond on the end of the cantilever) and honestly didn't think it was that tall, but then I was part-trained by Roy G himself who insisted that VTA is a non issue (I'd say he's half right here )

Someone on a UK sighted-subjectivist forum argued about the 2Ms not being suitable for the Rega arm. The shape and publicity pics told otherwise. I am aware of the slimmer-height 2M models but knowing the balance and sonics of this range in general, I think it's more for looks than actual sonics and in any case, 'VTA' can be fine tuned a little by altering downforce 1/10g either way - the 2Ms and AT equivalents have tracking margins for careful experimentation I found...

YouTube vids talking about 'HiFi matters.' DO PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL here, as many posters there don't know enough or have genuine experience. One cartridge 'expert' I recall, enthusiastically spouting forth his opinions-as-facts on a host of pickups he'd acquired and shown proudly displayed in front of him. This bod hated 'digital,' which told me all I needed to know about his genuine ignorance as to the correct sound of recordings and how vinyl tends to deviate from that, especially with many cheaper pickups.

Anyway, once again I digress with apologies.

Have you seen the top model Rega decks with their own MC cartridges fitted and working? I was stunned to see an Apheta 3 on a Planar 10 (very thin mat) with the arm obviously UP at the back. I mentioned this to their then sales manager (and an old mukka of mine from years back) to be given the Roy Gandy vibe all over again, so hey-ho

 

[Corvuscorone]

I have the remains of an MP11 here (no diamond on the end of the cantilever) and honestly didn't think it was that tall, but then I was part-trained by Roy G himself who insisted that VTA is a non issue (I'd say he's half right here )

Someone on a UK sighted-subjectivist forum argued about the 2Ms not being suitable for the Rega arm. The shape and publicity pics told otherwise. I am aware of the slimmer-height 2M models but knowing the balance and sonics of this range in general, I think it's more for looks than actual sonics and in any case, 'VTA' can be fine tuned a little by altering downforce 1/10g either way - the 2Ms and AT equivalents have tracking margins for careful experimentation I found...

YouTube vids talking about 'HiFi matters.' DO PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL here, as many posters there don't know enough or have genuine experience. One cartridge 'expert' I recall, enthusiastically spouting forth his opinions-as-facts on a host of pickups he'd acquired and shown proudly displayed in front of him. This bod hated 'digital,' which told me all I needed to know about his genuine ignorance as to the correct sound of recordings and how vinyl tends to deviate from that, especially with many cheaper pickups.

Anyway, once again I digress with apologies.

Have you seen the top model Rega decks with their own MC cartridges fitted and working? I was stunned to see an Apheta 3 on a Planar 10 (very thin mat) with the arm obviously UP at the back. I mentioned this to their then sales manager (and an old mukka of mine from years back) to be given the Roy Gandy vibe all over again, so hey-ho

Roy Gandy also believes that vinyl records don't need to be cleaned

 

[mhardy6647]

Well (and FWIW)... I think it is fair to say that they don't need to be cleaned as obsessively (not to mention as expensively) as many folks nowadays seem to feel is absolutely necessary.

 

[mike70]

Well (and FWIW)... I think it is fair to say that they don't need to be cleaned as obsessively (not to mention as expensively) as many folks nowadays seem to feel is absolutely necessary.

I tried many methods to clean the records. You don't need to use an expensive machine but also isn't the best to use only a brush spreading the dirt on the record.

Right wet cleaning with rinse / dry stages / right cleaning solution formula is fundamental. I spend pennies to do it with a manual method, but the results are as good as RCMs.

 

[Corvuscorone]

Well (and FWIW)... I think it is fair to say that they don't need to be cleaned as obsessively (not to mention as expensively) as many folks nowadays seem to feel is absolutely necessary.

In addition to the antistatic disc brush, I have a homemade solution of half distilled water and half isopropanol, a microfiber cloth, and a nylon brush. It's not expensive to buy battery water and a type of fuel antifreeze, which is isopropanol

 

[mhardy6647]

The original Discwasher brush (shown) and the "third generation" (D3) fluid (water plus some manner of alcohol and a touch of surfactant) did* a very good job of keeping a clean (e.g., new) record clean.

Best of all, the ritual cleaning of the grunge picked up by the Discwasher's directional fiber involved backstroking it on the thigh of one's well-worn blue jeans. The coefficient of friction was perfect; fit-for-purpose. Maybe if one got lucky, one could instead clean one's Discwasher after use on the thigh of a romantic partner's jeans... but I digress.

For grungy records, I will admit to having acquired a Spin Clean about 15 years ago. It does a good job on dump-find grade LPs.




____________
* and still does, if one has a brush that's not worn out, and a reasonable facsimile of D3.

 

[DSJR]

The thinking is that the diamond itself pushes crud out of the way while playing and to a small extent, this seems to hold true*. For older used records with suspect provenance, a decent wet/dry cleaning machine is worth the investment effort (do as I say, not as I do, but my records were almost all bought new and haven't deteriorated.

*Amazing how 'quiet' many records can be when played with a top flight pickup with a really decent diamond fitted.

 

[mhardy6647]

Stylus geometry can also play a role. An lp damaged by a stylus of one radius/geometry may play much more acceptably with a markedly different stylus profile.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Am surprised so many subjective turntable recommendations put forward.

I am not, TT, in this day an age, is a subjective experience. If one want to be objective much better stick with an alll digital source.
Back in the days, it was all we have, and yet, seeing ( meaningful) measurement was rarely part of the conversation when discussing cartridge/arms/TT/phono preamp choices.
Since Digital took over, we all know, or should, that TT don’t measure well against digital. It is not where the appeal is.
For TT, the whole experience counts, how it looks, how it feels, what you believe you ear, makes or break the moment.
My recommendation is an LP12, just because.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I like your advice, something I was looking for. My wife wants to get a turntable for Christmas. It will be our first and last turntable (at least I hope so). We want it for the same reasons as @Disfigured has mentioned. Cozy evenings with red wine in hands, but at the same time I don't want to buy a poor quality device. My budget is ~1500 Eur. I can get 1200GR2 for this price. The only difference is that I would connect it to AVC-A10h without dedicated phono stage. Cartridge is something that could be replaced in the future. Would you still give the same advice? The only thing I'm not too keen about Technics is the design as we want a nice interior element as well. I could also get Rega Planar 6 for similar price.

If you don’t like the disco look maybe this is more for you, probably better than any belt drive (rega) in same price range

Technics modernises its direct drive turntable with a contemporary design and Bluetooth streaming

The SL-40CBT has Bluetooth, a built-in phono stage and three new finishes

www.whathifi.com

 

[Dovydas]

If you don’t like the disco look maybe this is more for you, probably better than any belt drive (rega) in same price range

Technics modernises its direct drive turntable with a contemporary design and Bluetooth streaming

The SL-40CBT has Bluetooth, a built-in phono stage and three new finishes

www.whathifi.com

This one, actually, looks really nice. I was about to buy SL-1500C-K, but now I'm really interested in SL-40CBT. Any comments on its performance?

 

[Palmer]

Have to chime in here - the SL-1500C at, still - under 1400.- is in a different class all together, than the SL-40CBT at about 900.-
The underlying engineering speaks for itself, and if I were to get something to hold on for a while, the SL-1500C would be my choice. In off white...

Cheers

 

[Dovydas]

Thank you for everybody for chiming in. I'm settled on SL-1500C. What would be a good replacement cartridge? What about AT33PTG/II? Looks like a pretty good choice pricing wise.

 

[Palmer]

Or, for only 10 Grand - the Audio Technica Hotaru (Limited ) all in one Turntable, light and sound, immersive. So they say...

 

[mhardy6647]

^^^ slightly less preposterous* than the bigger ('spensiver) of the two Mac tts.

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* well... maybe not less preposterous as differently preposterous.