Help with selecting turntable, cartridge and a phono pre-amplifier

[Palmer]

Am surprised so many subjective turntable recommendations put forward.

No measurement resources listed to back them up.

The sore point is that time is a factor, I know it all too well - people that I help out with, need their gear to work - and certainly there's no money, 'specially in spending time, on measurements. Luckily there's new, cheaper stuff to be had, and I can bring a 2-channel 50 MHz scope to the customer, next to my phone and about the same size, instead of lugging laptop, Focusrite or the like - to get real data.
Then again, haven't even taken the screen protector off - never mind firing it up, or read the rather comprehensive menu. Never enough time...

DSTouch series - DreamSourceLab

www.dreamsourcelab.com

Cheers...

 

[Mojo Warrior]

After re-reading your initial post I would suggest that you consider an automatic turntable.

i.e. a turntable that will play the first track and lift the tonearm after the last track if you are considering using it while cooking in the kitchen, hanging out with friends or otherwise preoccupied with another task.

After many decades of experience with both manual and automatic turntables the convenience of automatic turntables cannot be overstated. There is nothing more annoying than to disrupt cooking to thoroughly clean your hands before handling your precious vinyl and turntable. There is no audible difference between quality manual and automatic turntables.

EDIT: +1 on Technics linear tracking clam shell turntables. Automatic operation, built like tanks and simple to operate. Many are available on the used market. IMHO sonically superior as well.

 

[DSJR]

All I will say is is…Technics is great and all, but you will be paying 4.5x for the same look and the same sound…the main thing you get for that is a heavier object and a bit less w/f…

You sure it's the same 'sound?' It may look the same, but the cheaper article may be plasticky and resonant which I don't feel the 1500C is. if so, this WILL have a negative effect on perceived sonics, especially in the mid-bass region, believe me!

There used to be plenty of objective tests on the usual W&F and basic rumble measurements, but HiFi Choice and later, HiFi World, used to do tonearm resonance tests and the bearing as well as other noises were tested as part of the total rumble figure (many cheap belt drives had extra vibration which could be heard as a high-bass 'drone' in quiet backgrounds, made worse by the structure of the deck). These days, the total subjective colouration of the players can now be compared with decently mastered LP and digital equivalents, the digital track if chosen carefully, the reference to see how far the vinyl diverges to this. Vinyl subjectivists won't give a toss about this, just 'trusting their ears' for the nicest tone to their individual tastes as 'We don't listen to test tones' or somesuch noinsense...

 

[Timcognito]

Without damning the whole vinyl thing (I still have my VPI/Rega/2MBlue) I would go used to save $$ and make sure you really want to adjust, set up, clean, store and get up every 20 minutes to flip your LPs. If you are near a large urban area in the USA Craigslist has lots of used options with late 70's and early 80s Yamaha, Sony and Technics TT for good sound, retro looks and end of play lift off arms. My suggestion Yamaha YP series.

 

[mike70]

My cheap deck of choice is still a suggestion for the AT LP5X (£299 here in the UK from Richer Sounds at least) and another ton will buy you a VMN95ML stylus as an upgrade as the higher fequencies really do benefit with this stylus type in the VM95 body. It looks Rega-like, the direct drive at least should trounce a Rega 1, 2 or 3 and it looks similar if you squint a bit

My Rega of choice is the 6/Neo and for neutrality, a 2M bronze (special slimline version) rather than one of their newish home-made MMs which haven't been properly tested yet other than some gushing subectivist opinions comparing with the godawful dull-as-ditchwater previous models they did (Elys 2 and Exact 2), but the price even here on the home market, is 50% or more expensive over the evergreen Technics SL1500C/2M Red, which is still what I'd call the 'sensible bod's choice' that almost certainly will see us out.

Use with lid OFF and the deck very carefully sited to prevent feedback, which starts WELL before the inevitable howl-round

Spending any more over the Technics above, even to the SL1300G or whatever it's called, is a bit of an anal money-pit hobbyist pursuit I'd suggest (and yes, I once lusted after the SP10 and descended models).

Vinyl CAN sound very impressive, which is more a criticism of our hearing abilities not being as good as we audio-peeps like to think they are. For decades, it's been as much about the RITUAL of playing a record, cleaning old ones (a good proper wet-n-dry record cleaner is a must if you want to take it really seriously as a major rather than occasional source [do as I say, not as I do - cough-]) and physically handling the disc and player.

The like wasn't enough... I agree with you in every word you said.

 

[DSJR]

Without damning the whole vinyl thing (I still have my VPI/Rega/2MBlue) I would go used to save $$ and make sure you really want to adjust, set up, clean, store and get up every 20 minutes to flip your LPs. If you are near a large urban area in the USA Craigslist has lots of used options with late 70's and early 80s Yamaha, Sony and Technics TT for good sound, retro looks and end of play lift off arms. My suggestion Yamaha YP series.

Trouble is and for 'newbies' to the joy and pain of vinyl, going used is an absolute effin' minefield really I think.

I mean, I know enough about the AR deck from the 70s (XB with decent main bearing, fitted cueing device preferably for me) to fit a suitable pickup in the quirky but effective if ugly tonearm, sit back and enjoy the sound. My own Dual 701 with the ancestor motor to the current Technics design is no mean performer, but I'd venture that ALL older auto decks need a service (almost all the Duals from 1019 era onwards are amazingly gentle on delicate styli...

Too many far eastern decks of old were 'all fur coat and no knickers' - all external looks and vibrating motors if belt driven, hollow boxes which resonate and a generally muddy ill-defined sound which could put a modern music listener off vinyl for life!

Going up in level, in the UK, some decent decks can now be got for not too much. I'm thinking of the Roksan Xerxes with RB300 arm. Worth a punt if the power supply is working properly (they ran VERY hot and go off if neglected) and a far more truthful tone than us 80s Linnies ever realised.( Old Linn LP12s are a potential money pit - avoid unless you really know the deck's provenance).

Technics made some damned good direct drives long before the immortal 1200mk2. The SL1300/1400/1500/150/1600/1700/1800 decks can 'sound' great if well looked after and the arm if bearings aren't rattly, takes all sorts well. the quartx 1300/1400/1500mk2 can have almost terminal cueing/lift failures. The SL110 and 120 (we never had the versions with arm where I worked) could feed back terribly and proper siting is essential - one could almost play a percussive tune if lightly tapping the deck-plate when playing (SME 'Improved' fixed head tonearm), yet the cheaper SL150 seemed better here...

Pioneer PL71 was a great if ugly old thing and I if I didn't have a stash here, a recent Yamaha YP800 for sale here in the UK got the old juices going as it looks so wonderful still...

I'd best shut up - to the OP, just stick to new for now please

 

[DVDdoug]

You got the second bit backwards

You are showing exactly what I was trying to say. With a "normal" resistive source, capacitance reduces the highs. But you get the opposite of that with the inductive source. Your graphs show the highest boost above 10khz with the maximum capacitance.

But my point was, you don't always get the same frequency response as what someone else measures... We rarely know the total capacitance. Cartridge A may be better in your setup and cartridge B on someone else's. The whole thing is a big analog mess!

 

[EERecordist]

The current batch of turntables have a certain "look" but today's turntables don't incorporate the engineering of peak turntables of the 70s and 80s primarily from Japan. The number of good tone arm manufacturers today is small. I always liked the old SME 3009 S2. Their current M2-12R has good looks.

If you want that look, but don't want to babysit the end of the side, you might consider turntables that stop, lift, or both at the end of the record. I'm aware of modern Denon, Technics, and Fluence. If you want wood, have a woodworker build a custom skirt around the turntable you pick. The cost will be the labor, so you can use exotic wood. The skirt can be narrow or wide. Throw in some LED lighting under the edge.

If you want to continue with vinyl, I would get an ultrasonic disk cleaner and better quality record sleeves, and some shelves to hold the disks.

Another direction to go is linear turntables. They do have their own look, maybe that will impress some, but not everyone. From a distortion standpoint they are better. Records are cut on linear lathes. A radial arm is not in line with how the groove was cut. Vintage linear turntables are automatic, push start, auto return arm and stop.

A very simple linear system are the vintage Technics linear turntables with the arm in the dust cover. The B&O linear turntables have a look, but from my understanding may have proprietary cartridges. My favorite are the Revox B7xx turntables. There are spare parts and Revox remanufactures them. An experienced tech can repair them and set up the cartridge. If you want a complicated look, take off the arm cover.

For a preamp, whatever tests well in ASR reviews. You could also swap out your RME for the ADI-2/4 Pro SE with direct MM phono input. To use MC you may need a transformer. Then you can sell your current ADI-2 DAC. The RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE solves your input selection switching between streaming and your turntable.

If you are in Europe, there may be a good supply of RME, Revox equipment, and service techs.

 

[Roland68]

Hello!

I have been thinking of getting a turntable for a few years now but started to actually do research on it only few weeks ago. The problem I have is that there are quite a large amount of different setup combinations and its a bit difficult to collect information that would better direct me to thinking how much should I actually spend and what to purchase specific to my case.

So, what am I exactly trying to achieve with going vinyl? Well, I already have a great setup for digital music with headphones. TIDAL + RME ADI-2 DAC FS + Feliks Audio Elise Mk2 + ZMF Verite Closed. Don't think I really ever need to update that and very happy with the sound I get. Love that the bass is punchy, clear and not muddy, there is great instrument separation, detailed while not being overly bright and having a bit of warmth. I'm not expecting to get this exactly same experience with vinyl, because I know that speakers, room size, type and treatment, vinyl quality will have such a large impact on the outcome. I have Adam A7X monitors, which I have been quite happy with as they give a pretty nice balanced tone with hint of warmth. Don't really know what kind of pairing I should look for to at least get "somewhat" similar experience to what I get with my digital music setup?

I'll also mention that vinyl for me would be more about the overall experience, daily rituals and owning specific records that I really love (genres from metal to electronic, jazz, hip-hop, classical e.g.) rather than achieving the best possible sound quality. I'm not going to always sit down at my sofa, perfect distance away from the speakers to try to get the most optimal listening experience. I would play the vinyls when friends are over, when I'm cooking in the kitchen close to the speakers or when I'm doing different chores nearby and occasionally sitting down to listen with focus. I could of course get a better experience just sticking with digital and CDs, but there are certain things about them that I'm not very fond of and vinyls just got certain charm to them.

The options that I have been looking to pair with my Adam A7X monitors and most heavily considering are:

Turntable options: Fluance RT85, Rega Planar 3 (Without cartridge). I like wooden materials and more retro looks.
Cartridge options: Ortofon 2M Blue (comes with Fluance), Ortofon 2M Bronze, Nagaoka MP-150/200 (I guess the Rega would need Ortofon 2MR to make installing easier, but if I remember reading correctly Nagaoka shouldn't need any arm adjustment)
Phono pre-amp options: Schiit Mani 2, Pro-Ject Phono Box S2/DS2/S2 Ultra

In my case, I have high doubts that would purchasing the Rega make any difference in terms of sound quality and justify spending extra 300 euros. I understand that Fluance RT85 with the Ortofon 2M Blue is already a very solid option, but I'm not sure how upgradeable the Fluance RT85 is in terms of wanting to test out different cartridges over time. I don't really have a very specific budget, but I guess something around 1500 euros would be the absolute limit, but would prefer to stick at around 1000 euros or less.

Thank you already for all the help!

I would also consider the Pro-Ject models. They sound good and are technically sound, offer a wide selection, and are proven.
Since their market penetration is much greater than that of Rega and other brands, there are often good deals, and used equipment is often a good option in terms of price.

 

[Disfigured]

Pro-Ject EVO 2 seems to be what I've heard most often about and could be an option. Also found out about Dual CS 618Q today which also seemed like an interesting option. So many choices. The problem is that I work in Czech Republic and finding stores where it would be possible to listen to few different tables and compare them seems to be quite problematic, and there is a bit of a language barrier too as many don't necessarily speak english. Wondering if I would need to visit Germany and if there were some stores where testing would be easier.

 

[The_Fall]

Congrats on deciding to get into LP playback -- I've been in on this for decades.

My recommendations to anyone is simple:

1. buy the most expensive Technics DD you can afford,
2. buy the most expensive Audio-Tecnica cart you can afford, and
3. buy the most expensive Michael Fidler phono stage you can afford...

All of these brands offer great products at entry prices and deliver extraordinary results up their line-ups.

I would also recommend to simply enjoy collecting and listening to your records...

 

[Palmer]

Pro-Ject EVO 2 seems to be what I've heard most often about and could be an option. Also found out about Dual CS 618Q today which also seemed like an interesting option. So many choices. The problem is that I work in Czech Republic and finding stores where it would be possible to listen to few different tables and compare them seems to be quite problematic, and there is a bit of a language barrier too as many don't necessarily speak english. Wondering if I would need to visit Germany and if there were some stores where testing would be easier.

I had a client that went through this journey and she consulted with me, no charge and settled on the EVO 2 . She is super happy, for the money it is an excellent choice.
Not a hundred percent sure, but I would think one could fit a "little fwend" knock-off on the table, the original is sort of expensive and out of stock at the moment for the Pro-Ject. Other source are available, if end of record is a concern...

https://www.aliexpress.com/p/tesla-landing/index.html?scenario=c_ppc_item_bridge&productId=3256805869503827&_immersiveMode=true&withMainCard=true&src=google&aff_platform=true&isdl=y

Cheers

 

[Dovydas]

Congrats on deciding to get into LP playback -- I've been in on this for decades.

My recommendations to anyone is simple:

1. buy the most expensive Technics DD you can afford,
2. buy the most expensive Audio-Tecnica cart you can afford, and
3. buy the most expensive Michael Fidler phono stage you can afford...

All of these brands offer great products at entry prices and deliver extraordinary results up their line-ups.

I would also recommend to simply enjoy collecting and listening to your records...

I like your advice, something I was looking for. My wife wants to get a turntable for Christmas. It will be our first and last turntable (at least I hope so). We want it for the same reasons as @Disfigured has mentioned. Cozy evenings with red wine in hands, but at the same time I don't want to buy a poor quality device. My budget is ~1500 Eur. I can get 1200GR2 for this price. The only difference is that I would connect it to AVC-A10h without dedicated phono stage. Cartridge is something that could be replaced in the future. Would you still give the same advice? The only thing I'm not too keen about Technics is the design as we want a nice interior element as well. I could also get Rega Planar 6 for similar price.

 

[mhardy6647]

I like your advice, something I was looking for. My wife wants to get a turntable for Christmas. It will be our first and last turntable (at least I hope so). We want it for the same reasons as @Disfigured has mentioned. Cozy evenings with red wine in hands, but at the same time I don't want to buy a poor quality device. My budget is ~1500 Eur. I can get 1200GR2 for this price. The only difference is that I would connect it to AVC-A10h without dedicated phono stage. Cartridge is something that could be replaced in the future. Would you still give the same advice? The only thing I'm not too keen about Technics is the design as we want a nice interior element as well. I could also get Rega Planar 6 for similar price.

Sounds like a perfect, and perfectly reasonable plan to me (FWIW).
Make sure you pick a very nice red. Were you me -- I'd go Bordeaux or maybe an exceptional Burgundy -- but if you prefer something like Rioja, that's cool, too.

 

[goat76]

I can get 1200GR2 for this price. The only difference is that I would connect it to AVC-A10h without dedicated phono stage. Cartridge is something that could be replaced in the future.

One thing to note, the Technics 1200GR2 doesn't come with a cartridge unless the store you are buying it from offers a bundle of some sort.

The only thing I'm not too keen about Technics is the design as we want a nice interior element as well. I could also get Rega Planar 6 for similar price.

I wasn't totally sold on the look of the 1200GR2 when I just looked at pictures of it on the web. I thought it looked a bit plastic, but that changed for me after I got my hands on the unit and realized what high-quality gear it is. It is quite heavy with the aluminum body, and all the controls feel great to the touch. It's funny that quality on its own can change how you look at things, at least that’s how it works for me.

At first, I was going to buy the black version, but after seeing many pictures of it I realized it's highly prone to fingerprints and a bit of a “dust magnet”. The silver version has the classic Technics look to it, which I now very much like.

 

[Dovydas]

One thing to note, the Technics 1200GR2 doesn't come with a cartridge unless the store you are buying it from offers a bundle of some sort.

It's a good catch, thanks. I missed it before. Would I loose anything performance wise by picking Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1500C-K or even Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1200MK7?

 

[Dovydas]

Sounds like a perfect, and perfectly reasonable plan to me (FWIW).
Make sure you pick a very nice red. Were you me -- I'd go Bordeaux or maybe an exceptional Burgundy -- but if you prefer something like Rioja, that's cool, too.

I prefer Malbec or Primitivo

 

[Bland_username42069]

It's a good catch, thanks. I missed it before. Would I loose anything performance wise by picking Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1500C-K or even Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1200MK7?

I have a GR2 but I needed pitch shift to play shellac. If you are just playing lps and 45s then you have no need for those features and the 1500c is a great choice imo - you have very clean minimalist set up for your living space and you won’t lose anything in sound quality in my experience.

 

[mike70]

It's a good catch, thanks. I missed it before. Would I loose anything performance wise by picking Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1500C-K or even Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1200MK7?

i actually have the mk7 ... also a vintage SL-Q3 and i had a mk2 that i sold years ago (at the better price moment )

differences in sound? objectively none, in your brain maybe ... if you let the suggestion to work.
i digitized the same track with the same cartridge, preamp, ADC, turntable settings and used the Foobar ABX comparator to check for differences. I failed with total success.

If the turntable have a decent minimal properties that really matters (and all the Technics direct drive quartz lock have it), the differences goes to the cartridge / stylus.
You can spend too much money and time to find it, it's your way.
I'm absolutely happy with the mk7, that is better than the older mk2 in some things (motor, pitch, detachable cable, ...) and also a step below in some construction details (buttons, lift lever, ....), but that doesn't affect the final sound quality at all.

I also had experience with a Rega P3 borrowed from a friend to check ... and i cannot walk in my wood floor or go too up in volume without resonances.
My friend told me "but i use the rega wall mount at 200 USD extra" ... wtf? With the technics i don't need anything

 

[mhardy6647]

I prefer Malbec or Primitivo

Thanks to a South American traveling friend, we "discovered" Malbec before... most Amurricans did.
But, heck, I am still enamored of good ol' California (red) Zinfandels, too -- even though they have minimal cred in the oenophile world.