Help with selecting turntable, cartridge and a phono pre-amplifier

[Disfigured]

Hello!

I have been thinking of getting a turntable for a few years now but started to actually do research on it only few weeks ago. The problem I have is that there are quite a large amount of different setup combinations and its a bit difficult to collect information that would better direct me to thinking how much should I actually spend and what to purchase specific to my case.

So, what am I exactly trying to achieve with going vinyl? Well, I already have a great setup for digital music with headphones. TIDAL + RME ADI-2 DAC FS + Feliks Audio Elise Mk2 + ZMF Verite Closed. Don't think I really ever need to update that and very happy with the sound I get. Love that the bass is punchy, clear and not muddy, there is great instrument separation, detailed while not being overly bright and having a bit of warmth. I'm not expecting to get this exactly same experience with vinyl, because I know that speakers, room size, type and treatment, vinyl quality will have such a large impact on the outcome. I have Adam A7X monitors, which I have been quite happy with as they give a pretty nice balanced tone with hint of warmth. Don't really know what kind of pairing I should look for to at least get "somewhat" similar experience to what I get with my digital music setup?

I'll also mention that vinyl for me would be more about the overall experience, daily rituals and owning specific records that I really love (genres from metal to electronic, jazz, hip-hop, classical e.g.) rather than achieving the best possible sound quality. I'm not going to always sit down at my sofa, perfect distance away from the speakers to try to get the most optimal listening experience. I would play the vinyls when friends are over, when I'm cooking in the kitchen close to the speakers or when I'm doing different chores nearby and occasionally sitting down to listen with focus. I could of course get a better experience just sticking with digital and CDs, but there are certain things about them that I'm not very fond of and vinyls just got certain charm to them.

The options that I have been looking to pair with my Adam A7X monitors and most heavily considering are:

Turntable options: Fluance RT85, Rega Planar 3 (Without cartridge). I like wooden materials and more retro looks.
Cartridge options: Ortofon 2M Blue (comes with Fluance), Ortofon 2M Bronze, Nagaoka MP-150/200 (I guess the Rega would need Ortofon 2MR to make installing easier, but if I remember reading correctly Nagaoka shouldn't need any arm adjustment)
Phono pre-amp options: Schiit Mani 2, Pro-Ject Phono Box S2/DS2/S2 Ultra

In my case, I have high doubts that would purchasing the Rega make any difference in terms of sound quality and justify spending extra 300 euros. I understand that Fluance RT85 with the Ortofon 2M Blue is already a very solid option, but I'm not sure how upgradeable the Fluance RT85 is in terms of wanting to test out different cartridges over time. I don't really have a very specific budget, but I guess something around 1500 euros would be the absolute limit, but would prefer to stick at around 1000 euros or less.

Thank you already for all the help!

 

[Zog]

I am sure there are plenty of good options out there. I would go with something direct drive - and Technics comes to mind first up. Also a second hand SL1200 series can be considered. They are build like a tank and down the line you can do all sorts of tweaks, such as Maglev feet from Ali Express. Carts: I can vouch for the Ortofon 2M Bronze.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome
You are going to get a number of replies pointing out that the sound quality from vinyl is less good than from digital - but you've been very clear about why you want vinyl, so don't be put off

Having said that, also don't overspend.

Both TTs you mention are good, and the Ortofon 2M Blue is a sensible choice. Personally, I wouldn't spend the extra for the Rega 3 and would be happy with the Rega Planar 2 if you like that style.
The Schiit Mani 2 gets good reviews here, sound choice. The little Fosi X5 is worth a look too.

Generally, direct drive TT's seem to offer the best value at this sort of level: Audio Technica LP120 series is a good place to start, and the Technics SL 1500C is probably the one to aspire to in your budget. Aesthetics are not to everyone's choice and that matters.

An alternative choice for cartridge that consistently gets love is the Audio Technica AT-VM95 range. Start with the Micro Linear (ML) stylus and you still have upgrade options if you get the bug

Good luck, and enjoy the music

 

[DVDdoug]

If I was in the market for a turntable I'd seriously consider the AT-LP120. It doesn't seem too cheap and it's not crazy expensive. It comes ready-to-play with a cartridge and built-in preamp. It's got USB if you want to digitize a record and it's direct drive so it should be reliable. (It can be used with an external preamp if you ever want to upgrade.)

Ignoring the record itself, usually the cartridge makes the biggest difference in sound quality. But it's mostly frequency response which can be tweaked with EQ/tone controls. And some cartridges are better at with "hard to track" records so you can get less tracking distortion with these records.

The preamp sometimes has some audible noise, so some are better than others. But the record surface noise almost always dominates once the stylus is in the grove with the record turning. Also inaccuracies in the RIAA equalization will result in frequency response variations, but again the records are "imperfect" too, and you can tweak with EQ/tone controls.

I haven't played records for decades but the only time I've heard a difference from the turntable itself it was a "cheap plastic record player" that had mechanical noise/rumble picked-up by the cartridge. And, I've heard turntables with worn-slipping drive wheels. My 40-year old direct drive Technics has never had a problem... But it hasn't been in continuous use... I only use it it occasionally digitize a record that's not available digitally.


P.S.
If we didn't have digital I'd get the Waxwing preamp because it's got digital noise reduction... It's for people who don't like the sound of vinyl.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Direct drive for the win.

 

[spiral scratch]

Turntable options: Fluance RT85, Rega Planar 3 (Without cartridge). I like wooden materials and more retro looks.

Yeh, the Regas are getting a bit pricey for what they are. Even used they are expensive, but maybe you can pick up a local deal. Direct drive is really the best simplest idea when it comes to making a good stable platter that spins properly. Belt drives were introduced as a cost cutting measure and sold as an "advancement".

If you want wood cabinets you might want to look used 1970s for that. Maybe a nice Dual, but that's not DD. Welcome to the world of audio compromises.

 

[Joe Smith]

IMO best inexpensive way to get into vinyl: the A-T 120xUSB table (around $350) coupled with the v95 microline cartridge (about $160). I know the table look is not quite what you were aiming for, but the black one is quite nice and just kind of "disappears." This combo gives good sound for little coin. I think either preamp you mention would be fine.

You can always later sell the A-T table and move up if you find you are spending a lot of time with the format and want to fine-tune the aesthetics...

 

[DSJR]

My cheap deck of choice is still a suggestion for the AT LP5X (£299 here in the UK from Richer Sounds at least) and another ton will buy you a VMN95ML stylus as an upgrade as the higher fequencies really do benefit with this stylus type in the VM95 body. It looks Rega-like, the direct drive at least should trounce a Rega 1, 2 or 3 and it looks similar if you squint a bit

My Rega of choice is the 6/Neo and for neutrality, a 2M bronze (special slimline version) rather than one of their newish home-made MMs which haven't been properly tested yet other than some gushing subectivist opinions comparing with the godawful dull-as-ditchwater previous models they did (Elys 2 and Exact 2), but the price even here on the home market, is 50% or more expensive over the evergreen Technics SL1500C/2M Red, which is still what I'd call the 'sensible bod's choice' that almost certainly will see us out.

Use with lid OFF and the deck very carefully sited to prevent feedback, which starts WELL before the inevitable howl-round

Spending any more over the Technics above, even to the SL1300G or whatever it's called, is a bit of an anal money-pit hobbyist pursuit I'd suggest (and yes, I once lusted after the SP10 and descended models).

Vinyl CAN sound very impressive, which is more a criticism of our hearing abilities not being as good as we audio-peeps like to think they are. For decades, it's been as much about the RITUAL of playing a record, cleaning old ones (a good proper wet-n-dry record cleaner is a must if you want to take it really seriously as a major rather than occasional source [do as I say, not as I do - cough-]) and physically handling the disc and player.

 

[Disfigured]

Thank you very much for all the answers! Haven't made any decisions yet, but I took the SL-1500C also under consideration. The AT LP-120 is a bit too much out of my taste range I feel but the 1500C I could probably go with. It would also give a me a chance to split purchases because it has the built in pre-amp so I could use it already for a few weeks while waiting to purchase a proper pre-amp and upgrade to other cartridge later. Will try to visit a store soon where I could hopefully get to see and try out the 1500C and Rega too if possible.

 

[Palmer]

Phono Pre - I bought the Fosi Audio Box X5, I needed another one for running several tables at the same time, and despite the missing choice of impedance - I have to say, for the money it is fantastic. My 2 cents is, that in this bracket - it is a contender.

Fosi Audio Box X5 Phono Preamplifier

Fosi Audio MM Turntable Phono Preamplifier. Compact design with 3.5MM AUX and RCA output.

fosiaudio.com

Cheers...

 

[Joe Smith]

All I will say is is…Technics is great and all, but you will be paying 4.5x for the same look and the same sound…the main thing you get for that is a heavier object and a bit less w/f…

 

[Apesbrain]

It would also give a me a chance to split purchases because it has the built in pre-amp so I could use it already for a few weeks while waiting to purchase a proper pre-amp and upgrade to other cartridge later.

Don't assume the pre-amp in the Technics won't satisfy; many people are fine with it. Try to get an upgrade to the Ortofon Blue stylus; it's a much better performer.

 

[mhardy6647]

Technics DD.
A-T cartridge if you like them, Grado or Denon if you don't (I don't, but many folks do).
Preamp is harder. Cheap: ART or Hagerman kit (if still available). Not cheap: Parks Audio (likewise).

 

[Laika2]

Hello!

I have been thinking of getting a turntable for a few years now but started to actually do research on it only few weeks ago. The problem I have is that there are quite a large amount of different setup combinations and its a bit difficult to collect information that would better direct me to thinking how much should I actually spend and what to purchase specific to my case.

So, what am I exactly trying to achieve with going vinyl? Well, I already have a great setup for digital music with headphones. TIDAL + RME ADI-2 DAC FS + Feliks Audio Elise Mk2 + ZMF Verite Closed. Don't think I really ever need to update that and very happy with the sound I get. Love that the bass is punchy, clear and not muddy, there is great instrument separation, detailed while not being overly bright and having a bit of warmth. I'm not expecting to get this exactly same experience with vinyl, because I know that speakers, room size, type and treatment, vinyl quality will have such a large impact on the outcome. I have Adam A7X monitors, which I have been quite happy with as they give a pretty nice balanced tone with hint of warmth. Don't really know what kind of pairing I should look for to at least get "somewhat" similar experience to what I get with my digital music setup?

I'll also mention that vinyl for me would be more about the overall experience, daily rituals and owning specific records that I really love (genres from metal to electronic, jazz, hip-hop, classical e.g.) rather than achieving the best possible sound quality. I'm not going to always sit down at my sofa, perfect distance away from the speakers to try to get the most optimal listening experience. I would play the vinyls when friends are over, when I'm cooking in the kitchen close to the speakers or when I'm doing different chores nearby and occasionally sitting down to listen with focus. I could of course get a better experience just sticking with digital and CDs, but there are certain things about them that I'm not very fond of and vinyls just got certain charm to them.

The options that I have been looking to pair with my Adam A7X monitors and most heavily considering are:

Turntable options: Fluance RT85, Rega Planar 3 (Without cartridge). I like wooden materials and more retro looks.
Cartridge options: Ortofon 2M Blue (comes with Fluance), Ortofon 2M Bronze, Nagaoka MP-150/200 (I guess the Rega would need Ortofon 2MR to make installing easier, but if I remember reading correctly Nagaoka shouldn't need any arm adjustment)
Phono pre-amp options: Schiit Mani 2, Pro-Ject Phono Box S2/DS2/S2 Ultra

In my case, I have high doubts that would purchasing the Rega make any difference in terms of sound quality and justify spending extra 300 euros. I understand that Fluance RT85 with the Ortofon 2M Blue is already a very solid option, but I'm not sure how upgradeable the Fluance RT85 is in terms of wanting to test out different cartridges over time. I don't really have a very specific budget, but I guess something around 1500 euros would be the absolute limit, but would prefer to stick at around 1000 euros or less.

Thank you already for all the help!

As far as the Bronze, I have one, also a Black and a Black LVB 250.

The bronze is the one in my opinion. The Bronze is a big jump from the blue, the black and the Black LVB (the last one I use on my two tables) The jump from the Bronze to the Black or Black LVB 250 are slight but noticeable. No wow factor, just a bit better, from Blue to Bronze gets you the WOW factor, huge sonic jump from the blue.

 

[1066]

Am surprised so many subjective turntable recommendations put forward.

No measurement resources listed to back them up.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Am surprised so many subjective turntable recommendations put forward.

No measurement resources listed to back them up.

Rega won’t even publish their measurements from what I can see.

Direct drive has been proven for decades now to outspec belt drive for wow / flutter

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

A.T. Show their specifications

 

[DVDdoug]

Am surprised so many subjective turntable recommendations put forward.

No measurement resources listed to back them up.

I Agree!

Back in the analog days when I was playing records I always thought there was a difference when I "upgraded" the cartridge and I always rationalized any perceived difference as an improvement. But I didn't have a practical way to A/B (and don't think ABX had been invented yet). I had a test record but no way to properly measure the differences.

The load capacitance (wiring, cables, and preamp which are usually unknown) also affects the high frequencies so different people aren't getting the exact same result with the same cartridge.

And in the analog days I didn't understand what capacitance was doing... USUALLY, parallel capacitance rolls-off the highs (if it has an effect) and I knew that, so I thought it was best to minimize capacitance. BUT now I know that the capacitance together with cartridge inductance makes a tuned circuit. There is an optimum and higher capacitance brings the resonant frequency down closer to the upper-audio range, so higher capacitance tends to have the opposite effect of boosting the highs.

outspec belt drive for wow / flutter

I've never HEARD wow or flutter unless a turntable or tape machine was broken. With a turntable, it was a worn drive wheel or belt so the speed was slow and varying, so slow with wow. I've heard flutter from a tape machine but never from a turntable. I think the inertia smooths-out any fast speed variations. (An off-center record will have wow.)

 

[goat76]

I recently purchased a turntable for pretty much the same reasons as you, @Disfigured. My initial idea was to buy something either on the used market or something new on the cheaper side. I also wanted something with a wooden finish, as I find most other turntables to look a bit plastic and cheap, but then I turned my head towards direct drive models, most of which look like DJ turntables. While I was reading and learning about turntables, I got used to seeing the Technics and actually started to like the retro DJ look of them. Wooden plints are available from third parties, if you really want that look.

I ended up buying a new Technics 1200GR2 with an AT33PTG/II cartridge, way over my initial budget, but I'm very satisfied with my choice. I have also realised how important it is to be able to adjust everything to the finest detail, as vinyl playback is highly delicate when it comes to seemingly very small adjustments. The adjustments that can be done on the Technics turntable are well thought-out; it's very important to be able to adjust the height of the tonearm, and it's a nice feature with the removable headstock, which makes it easy to install. It's also great to have the overhang gauge, which helps a lot with getting the cartridge positioning exactly right, as there is hardly any further adjustment left to do to get it aligned correctly.

As said, everything is easily adjusted with great precision with these Technics. It also has a high-quality feel when it comes to the heavy aluminum chassis, something to consider if you care about stuff like that, as the unit will regularly be touched when you change records and so on.
I was initially considering the Technics 1500C, but I never intended to use the built-in preamp, and I was already set on upgrading the cartridge. The 1200GR2 also has a seemingly better height adjustment mechanism that is probably easier to use to get the finer adjustment just right. And maybe, just maybe, not having to spend on a built-in preamp and the cartridge that will not be used, the additional cost may have gone into a bit higher build-quality of the unit.

It sounds great, and I must say there is something special with the sound of vinyl playback that I can't quite put my finger on. There's something "natural-sounding" about it, or just something that comes with the overall package and the beauty of it all. It's quite nice in handling the record, cleaning it with the brush, and slowly letting the needle hit the grooves. The large covers of my favorite records look great, and some of them are pure art.

 

[JP]

There is an optimum and higher capacitance brings the resonant frequency down closer to the upper-audio range, so higher capacitance tends to have the opposite effect of boosting the highs.

You got the second bit backwards. Bringing Fres in to the HF range boosts that range, i.e. boosts the highs, unless you've so much capacitance you bring the lowpass corner down: