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Help with my room and ringing (is this ringing????)

Nwickliff

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lease Help. Issues at 60hz, 80hz, 100hz, 120hz, 160hz, 220hz and 240hz. These are all time-domain issues (I think) as I've eq'd a decent frequency response. Still hearing a bloom to male vocals I don't like at all in dialog for movies and shows. My waterfall measurements is at 3:20

Here are the measurements REW File



Here is my room
 
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Bliman

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Hi,
First, great videos you posted and I hope you get a lot of help.
Maybe look here for room modes and you can calculate and see if it correlates with the problems in the waterfall plot https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=20&w=15&h=9&ft=true&re=EBU listening room
What I also would do is measure once with the Subwoofer off and see if this also causes problems. If it does then try to place the subwoofer somewhere else.
If this is the cause then we are looking at bass traps (maybe in the corner)
What you also can try is to measure the front speakers separately left and right with and without a subwoofer. To hopefully get a clearer image of what is going on. To be honest I personally suspect the right front is causing a bit of problems with it being so close to both walls (back and side wall). And then you add the subwoofer there it can cause a lot of problems.
But I am sure there are much more people that can help.
Lots of success.
 
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Nwickliff

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Hi,
First, great videos you posted and I hope you get a lot of help.
Maybe look here for room modes and you can calculate and see if it correlates with the problems in the waterfall plot https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=20&w=15&h=9&ft=true&re=EBU listening room
What I also would do is measure once with the Subwoofer off and see if this also causes problems. If it does then try to place the subwoofer somewhere else.
If this is the cause then we are looking at bass traps (maybe in the corner)
What you also can try is to measure the front speakers separately left and right with and without a subwoofer. To hopefully get a clearer image of what is going on. To be honest I personally suspect the right front is causing a bit of problems with it being so close to both walls (back and side wall). And then you add the subwoofer there it can cause a lot of problems.
But I am sure there are much more people that can help.
Lots of success.
Thank you so much for taking the time to view the videos and give me your thoughts. I really appreciate it. That's a great idea that I'm smacking myself in the forehead for not thinking about. Measure each speaker independently, duh!!! The same thing goes for photography. People new want to toss up three lights and figure out which light is doing what and make adjustments instead of lighting the subject and background one light at a time. Thanks again for this. I'm curious if it's the sub in that corner there. The right speaker was all the way in the corner, to begin with, because I like having the equilateral triangle, but it messed with the response too much so brought them back in.
 

Bliman

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Thank you so much for taking the time to view the videos and give me your thoughts. I really appreciate it. That's a great idea that I'm smacking myself in the forehead for not thinking about. Measure each speaker independently, duh!!! The same thing goes for photography. People new want to toss up three lights and figure out which light is doing what and make adjustments instead of lighting the subject and background one light at a time. Thanks again for this. I'm curious if it's the sub in that corner there. The right speaker was all the way in the corner, to begin with, because I like having the equilateral triangle, but it messed with the response too much so brought them back in.
Your welcome. Keep us posted. What you also can do is take your problem areas in your waterfall plot (60Hz and such). And start REW and play a sine wave at these specific frequencies like 60 Hz and at such a level where you most of the time have the problem with, let's say 85dB if you are listening to music or watching a movie or when you hear that it is mushier). And then you can go around your room, like for example you can start in the front right corner and go along the wall and see where it is the loudest (try for this to pull the subwoofer from the wall a bit or without the subwoofer). You can use a smartphone decibel app or such and search where the problem area is and where it sounds the loudest or where it seems to linger. You can also can listen if something is vibrating at this frequency that can also give trouble.
 

alex-z

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The stock RP-600M do have some pretty strong resonances in the 300-500 and 700-1000Hz regions. Plugging the ports and bracing the cabinets is likely to make a significant difference. You mentioned upgraded crossovers, were the cabinets improved at all?

Your other issues stem from room modes (which do extend up to 200Hz in most rooms), and speaker boundary interference, which are the half wavelength reflections from surfaces near your speakers. Don't worry about the 40 and 60Hz problems, they have a long decay time but are low in amplitude and therefore much less audible than your 120-200Hz problems.

Some basic absorption panels on your strongest reflection points should help considerably. Directly between the speakers and your walls, a few on the ceiling, maybe 1-2 on the brick fireplace. I assume doing the side walls is not possible due to WAF.

3.5" mineral wool panels are cheap and easy to DIY, although go with 5.5" if you can for the extra mid-bass absorption. An air gap behind the panels also helps, up to the full thickness of the panel.

Bass trap the corners if you can, just know that bass traps need at least 10" of thickness to actually treat bass, and not just mid-bass.

Are new window coverings possible? If you could do something like a thick curtain on a sliding rail it would probably help the high frequency clarity.

I would suggest doing some near-field (30cm) measurements of the speakers and subwoofers individually, just to make sure we aren't mistaking speaker behaviour for room behaviour.
 

pozz

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@Nwickliff You have a really nice looking space. I suspect @Bliman is correct about the right front speaker, but also that the fix won't be hard or require much from you: adjusting your EQ, per channel, and making sure the front speakers are toed in and their tweeters fire at the height of your ears (they don't have to fire directly at your head, just at the general height of your ears). Your speakers have pretty narrow vertical directivity, which will persist despite the crossover fix, assuming it was done to correct the broad 2kHz defect. That said I still see the dip show up in your measurement #9. This is probably related to your measurement position, which was above or below the acoustic center of your speakers.

The 60Hz and 120Hz tails are related to some kind of mains hum (ventilation, fridge, something like that). Note that they are nearly constant, low amplitude, so not a problem. The 2.7kHz tail is probably some kind of electrical leakage from the UMIK microphone (see for example the leakage of 1kHz and harmonics in this measurement) or your computer. It probably has no acoustic source, or you'd hear it.

The main audible problem you mentioned was vocal bloom, especially for males. I'm not exactly sure what bloom means but it seems to be another way of saying that the dialogue is unintelligible.

Some questions (I think you may have answered some of these in your videos but it's easier to have it all on paper):
  • Are you doing MMM with all channels (fronts, rears, subs) going at once?
    • Are you covering the entire listening area and more? (At least a foot in every direction, 360 degrees, with the center being your head at the listening position.)
    • Are you moving your arm in slow circles or sweeping it from side to side? (Should be the former.)
    • Are you facing the microphone at your speakers or pointing it vertically? (Should be the former.)
  • Are you applying EQ to all channels at once or individually? (Should be the latter.)
  • Are you applying EQ to the whole frequency range? (See below.)
  • Does the position of the speakers in your video represent that final single point measurement (#9 in the mdat), or did you toe them in further? Did you ensure the microphone was at tweeter level?
  • When listening, is your head at the height of the tweeter or above it? Does your "critical listening" position (when running back and forth, measuring, testing tracks, trying EQ tweaks) represent your actual position when relaxed, or do you tend to slouch or lean to the side or forward?
  • Do your speakers sound good with your face right in them?
Whatever you're doing in the region below 100Hz looks right. The 70Hz dip is really small and can be ignored. Above that from 100Hz up to around 1kHz the response is mostly related to the speaker interaction with the room, aka SBIR. This is the problem region and won't respond too well to EQ. If you have to make corrections, make them broad Q: I suggest trying filters at 100Hz-200Hz, 400-500Hz and 600Hz based on measurement #9. Try to make multiple single point measurements around your listening position within, say a foot's distance, and compare their trend to an MM sweep to make sure the filters are in the right range. Anything above 1kHz is related to listening/measurement position and speaker response. Don't try to correct anything there other than dialing in a tilt.

The transition from bass to midrange is important for clarity and overall tone. Controlling the tilt there is pretty hard using manual EQ and requires a lot of trial and error, but can be done.
index.php

index.php
 

pozz

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The stock RP-600M do have some pretty strong resonances in the 300-500 and 700-1000Hz regions. Plugging the ports and bracing the cabinets is likely to make a significant difference. You mentioned upgraded crossovers, were the cabinets improved at all?
Are you referring to this waterfall plot?
500Hz and below is probably noise from Amir's garage. The trace under 1kHz seems to be two peaks harmonically related to the below, so unlikely to be generated by the speaker. Same goes for the slope, which matches even the lowest outcropping. I think nearfield measurements will confirm that the speaker is fine.
 
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Nwickliff

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The stock RP-600M do have some pretty strong resonances in the 300-500 and 700-1000Hz regions. Plugging the ports and bracing the cabinets is likely to make a significant difference. You mentioned upgraded crossovers, were the cabinets improved at all?

Your other issues stem from room modes (which do extend up to 200Hz in most rooms), and speaker boundary interference, which are the half wavelength reflections from surfaces near your speakers. Don't worry about the 40 and 60Hz problems, they have a long decay time but are low in amplitude and therefore much less audible than your 120-200Hz problems.

Some basic absorption panels on your strongest reflection points should help considerably. Directly between the speakers and your walls, a few on the ceiling, maybe 1-2 on the brick fireplace. I assume doing the side walls is not possible due to WAF.

3.5" mineral wool panels are cheap and easy to DIY, although go with 5.5" if you can for the extra mid-bass absorption. An air gap behind the panels also helps, up to the full thickness of the panel.

Bass trap the corners if you can, just know that bass traps need at least 10" of thickness to actually treat bass, and not just mid-bass.

Are new window coverings possible? If you could do something like a thick curtain on a sliding rail it would probably help the high frequency clarity.

I would suggest doing some near-field (30cm) measurements of the speakers and subwoofers individually, just to make sure we aren't mistaking speaker behaviour for room behaviour.
Thank you for your time. I will try and run some nearfield tests tomorrow if I have time. Large absorption will probably be a hard sell but I'll try my best. I already said I would probably need some 4 inch panels and that those panels would need gaps between them and the wall. So we'll see. It just sucks because I spent all this time eq'ing a decent frequency response, my wife is gonna be like, you said you go them to look good so what now.

There's NO REZ sheets inside the box on all the panels but no extra bracing.
 
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Nwickliff

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@Nwickliff You have a really nice looking space. I suspect @Bliman is correct about the right front speaker, but also that the fix won't be hard or require much from you: adjusting your EQ, per channel, and making sure the front speakers are toed in and their tweeters fire at the height of your ears (they don't have to fire directly at your head, just at the general height of your ears). Your speakers have pretty narrow vertical directivity, which will persist despite the crossover fix, assuming it was done to correct the broad 2kHz defect. That said I still see the dip show up in your measurement #9. This is probably related to your measurement position, which was above or below the acoustic center of your speakers.

The 60Hz and 120Hz tails are related to some kind of mains hum (ventilation, fridge, something like that). Note that they are nearly constant, low amplitude, so not a problem. The 2.7kHz tail is probably some kind of electrical leakage from the UMIK microphone (see for example the leakage of 1kHz and harmonics in this measurement) or your computer. It probably has no acoustic source, or you'd hear it.

The main audible problem you mentioned was vocal bloom, especially for males. I'm not exactly sure what bloom means but it seems to be another way of saying that the dialogue is unintelligible.

Some questions (I think you may have answered some of these in your videos but it's easier to have it all on paper):
  • Are you doing MMM with all channels (fronts, rears, subs) going at once?
    • Are you covering the entire listening area and more? (At least a foot in every direction, 360 degrees, with the center being your head at the listening position.)
    • Are you moving your arm in slow circles or sweeping it from side to side? (Should be the former.)
    • Are you facing the microphone at your speakers or pointing it vertically? (Should be the former.)
  • Are you applying EQ to all channels at once or individually? (Should be the latter.)
  • Are you applying EQ to the whole frequency range? (See below.)
  • Does the position of the speakers in your video represent that final single point measurement (#9 in the mdat), or did you toe them in further? Did you ensure the microphone was at tweeter level?
  • When listening, is your head at the height of the tweeter or above it? Does your "critical listening" position (when running back and forth, measuring, testing tracks, trying EQ tweaks) represent your actual position when relaxed, or do you tend to slouch or lean to the side or forward?
  • Do your speakers sound good with your face right in them?
Whatever you're doing in the region below 100Hz looks right. The 70Hz dip is really small and can be ignored. Above that from 100Hz up to around 1kHz the response is mostly related to the speaker interaction with the room, aka SBIR. This is the problem region and won't respond too well to EQ. If you have to make corrections, make them broad Q: I suggest trying filters at 100Hz-200Hz, 400-500Hz and 600Hz based on measurement #9. Try to make multiple single point measurements around your listening position within, say a foot's distance, and compare their trend to an MM sweep to make sure the filters are in the right range. Anything above 1kHz is related to listening/measurement position and speaker response. Don't try to correct anything there other than dialing in a tilt.

The transition from bass to midrange is important for clarity and overall tone. Controlling the tilt there is pretty hard using manual EQ and requires a lot of trial and error, but can be done.
Wow! So thorough! Thank you!

Ok Here we go
  • Are you doing MMM with all channels (fronts, rears, subs) going at once? fronts and subs,sometimes just subs, never all the speakers
    • Are you covering the entire listening area and more? (At least a foot in every direction, 360 degrees, with the center being your head at the listening position.) 12 inches in all directions
    • Are you moving your arm in slow circles or sweeping it from side to side? (Should be the former.)slow circles
    • Are you facing the microphone at your speakers or pointing it vertically? (Should be the former.)NOT using 90 degree position or cal file
  • Are you applying EQ to all channels at once or individually? (Should be the latter.) I EQ'd the sum of L/R
  • Are you applying EQ to the whole frequency range? (See below.)I did apply to entire range this time but last time only room frequencies and then shelved the highs and played with toe to get the tilt I liked
  • Does the position of the speakers in your video represent that final single point measurement (#9 in the mdat), or did you toe them in further? Did you ensure the microphone was at tweeter level? mic at tweet level, no toe because I liked the wider stereo image even though it sacrificed center image tad and also gave slope to the treble I liked without any eq
  • When listening, is your head at the height of the tweeter or above it? Does your "critical listening" position (when running back and forth, measuring, testing tracks, trying EQ tweaks) represent your actual position when relaxed, or do you tend to slouch or lean to the side or forward? ears at tweeter and I prop my back with pillow to remain pretty upright during movies and listening.
  • Do your speakers sound good with your face right in them? I'll check this out. My inclination is they don't have any of the bloom or extra energy in the 100 to 500 range that I think I'm hearing from the listening position. I'll give it a listen to make sure.
I'll go back to not touching above the room frequencies except for a highpass shelf
Thanks again for your help!!!
 

pozz

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Wow! So thorough! Thank you!

Ok Here we go
  • Are you doing MMM with all channels (fronts, rears, subs) going at once? fronts and subs,sometimes just subs, never all the speakers
    • Are you covering the entire listening area and more? (At least a foot in every direction, 360 degrees, with the center being your head at the listening position.) 12 inches in all directions
    • Are you moving your arm in slow circles or sweeping it from side to side? (Should be the former.)slow circles
    • Are you facing the microphone at your speakers or pointing it vertically? (Should be the former.)NOT using 90 degree position or cal file
  • Are you applying EQ to all channels at once or individually? (Should be the latter.) I EQ'd the sum of L/R
  • Are you applying EQ to the whole frequency range? (See below.)I did apply to entire range this time but last time only room frequencies and then shelved the highs and played with toe to get the tilt I liked
  • Does the position of the speakers in your video represent that final single point measurement (#9 in the mdat), or did you toe them in further? Did you ensure the microphone was at tweeter level? mic at tweet level, no toe because I liked the wider stereo image even though it sacrificed center image tad and also gave slope to the treble I liked without any eq
  • When listening, is your head at the height of the tweeter or above it? Does your "critical listening" position (when running back and forth, measuring, testing tracks, trying EQ tweaks) represent your actual position when relaxed, or do you tend to slouch or lean to the side or forward? ears at tweeter and I prop my back with pillow to remain pretty upright during movies and listening.
  • Do your speakers sound good with your face right in them? I'll check this out. My inclination is they don't have any of the bloom or extra energy in the 100 to 500 range that I think I'm hearing from the listening position. I'll give it a listen to make sure.
I'll go back to not touching above the room frequencies except for a highpass shelf
Thanks again for your help!!!
Seems like all's good apart from the low mids, although if that 2kHz dip is consistent across your single point measurements you could correct it as well, depending on the effect of the custom crossover.

I'm not saying treatment won't be beneficial, but I doubt you'll need it. Your speakers have narrowish horizontal directivity, it's a big space with no obstacles (so nice reverb times, no random reflections) and where you're sitting is not too close to the right wall, so I wouldn't expect a bias in terms of soundstage (images are shifted towards it) or ambience (overall level higher on the right for less correlated sounds). Windows and brick rear are no biggie, given where they are. The amount of treatment necessary for a worthwhile effect in that low mid region doesn't make that option compelling IMO.

Another impractical idea would be to shift the whole setup 45 degrees to the right, so the TV would be in the corner, the speakers firing out and the couch facing in.
 
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Nwickliff

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Seems like all's good apart from the low mids, although if that 2kHz dip is consistent across your single point measurements you could correct it as well, depending on the effect of the custom crossover.

I'm not saying treatment won't be beneficial, but I doubt you'll need it. Your speakers have narrowish horizontal directivity, it's a big space with no obstacles (so nice reverb times, no random reflections) and where you're sitting is not too close to the right wall, so I wouldn't expect a bias in terms of soundstage (images are shifted towards it) or ambience (overall level higher on the right for less correlated sounds). Windows and brick rear are no biggie, given where they are. The amount of treatment necessary for a worthwhile effect in that low mid region doesn't make that option compelling IMO.

Another impractical idea would be to shift the whole setup 45 degrees to the right, so the TV would be in the corner, the speakers firing out and the couch facing in.
Thanks again for all of this. I will go back to my toe'd in as straight ahead was only beneficial for 2 channel music listening and mostly I use it for movies so the wide soundstage can be handled with the surrounds.

I will only eq to Schroder frequency and just use the shelf for the highs

I might try to reduce my db/ocatave slope to see if some of the lower frequencies are masking the higher ones

no 2k dip in my moving mic measurement at the listening position.
2021-10-18-Moving-Mic.jpg
 

pozz

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Thanks again for all of this. I will go back to my toe'd in as straight ahead was only beneficial for 2 channel music listening and mostly I use it for movies so the wide soundstage can be handled with the surrounds.

I will only eq to Schroder frequency and just use the shelf for the highs

I might try to reduce my db/ocatave slope to see if some of the lower frequencies are masking the higher ones

no 2k dip in my moving mic measurement at the listening position.
View attachment 160179
Is it sounding any better? The measurement certainly looks better but I would imagine when listening it still feels a little off. The cancellations in the 100-200Hz region are still rough.

For reference below is an ERB model. The ear basically responds to the amount of energy in each filter (plus other stuff, of course). The main goal is to even out the energy. So if you can fix your problem area with some boosting, it might sound better even without changing the tilt.
An-example-ERB-filterbank-magnitude-responses-in-the-range-of-401000-Hz-Human.png


This area in general is depressed relative to the frequencies on either side:
1634660193949.png

Try a low Q boost around 150Hz.

The specific area that's really bothersome is here:
1634660046225.png

Maybe another higher Q filter just for this may work.
 

williamwally

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Seems like you're doing a great job, and showing the actual room with measurements helps those here who are good at analyzing measurements (not me) immensely.
A couple quick questions :
-How much have you moved the speakers in off the back wall to see what changes that makes?

-This may not be acceptable room layout wise; but have you tried (even if just to try) taking out the section of the couch against the wall? It could be interfering with a lot of the right speaker's output in the mid-lower range, where it is not as directional, and time smearing or causing other artifacts.
 

Hipper

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One thing I might add is that it is often said that a drum kit might add to resonances in the room, especially I presume when near a speaker. You could check if this might be so by throwing a blanket over the kit and checking if you hear anything different.
 
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Nwickliff

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Seems like you're doing a great job, and showing the actual room with measurements helps those here who are good at analyzing measurements (not me) immensely.
A couple quick questions :
-How much have you moved the speakers in off the back wall to see what changes that makes?

-This may not be acceptable room layout wise; but have you tried (even if just to try) taking out the section of the couch against the wall? It could be interfering with a lot of the right speaker's output in the mid-lower range, where it is not as directional, and time smearing or causing other artifacts.
Thank you. I can't move things for at least 6 months right now per my wife's request. I normally have them far from the back wall but I think I got better response when I pushed them up against the wall. I'll have to play with that again perhaps. I used to have them as far out into the room as I could get away with, but that wasn't very far so felt it best to just slam em up against the wall to avoid sbir.
 
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Nwickliff

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One thing I might add is that it is often said that a drum kit might add to resonances in the room, especially I presume when near a speaker. You could check if this might be so by throwing a blanket over the kit and checking if you hear anything different.
That's smart!! Acoustic drums definitely love to ring. These are rubber and mesh pads so no resonances from them and no headaches from my 10-year-old practicing. win win!
 
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Nwickliff

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Is it sounding any better? The measurement certainly looks better but I would imagine when listening it still feels a little off. The cancellations in the 100-200Hz region are still rough.

For reference below is an ERB model. The ear basically responds to the amount of energy in each filter (plus other stuff, of course). The main goal is to even out the energy. So if you can fix your problem area with some boosting, it might sound better even without changing the tilt.
An-example-ERB-filterbank-magnitude-responses-in-the-range-of-401000-Hz-Human.png


This area in general is depressed relative to the frequencies on either side:
View attachment 160185
Try a low Q boost around 150Hz.

The specific area that's really bothersome is here:
View attachment 160183

Maybe another higher Q filter just for this may work.
This is actually the same measurement just not the waterfall and not a single measurement. It was my moving mic measurement with about 80 or so measurements averaged. I toed them in which I'm sure brought up the highs quite a bit but it might help balance out those mids. I measured each speaker individually and the right speaker didn't give any appreciable difference to the left in the trailing frequencies. It was all still there with the subs turned off as well. I wonder if I go into the miniDSP and give a sharper roll-off in the crossover to the subs if that might help. The AVR has a pretty shallow slope I think. I'll post the individual sweeps later today if I can in between my video interviews (if I have internet).
 

Bliman

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This is actually the same measurement just not the waterfall and not a single measurement. It was my moving mic measurement with about 80 or so measurements averaged. I toed them in which I'm sure brought up the highs quite a bit but it might help balance out those mids. I measured each speaker individually and the right speaker didn't give any appreciable difference to the left in the trailing frequencies. It was all still there with the subs turned off as well. I wonder if I go into the miniDSP and give a sharper roll-off in the crossover to the subs if that might help. The AVR has a pretty shallow slope I think. I'll post the individual sweeps later today if I can in between my video interviews (if I have internet).
Did you also played the sine waves at the problematic frequencies with REW? Can you tell what your biggest problems are?
 

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Adding my 2 cents: I was in your shoes for 3 years or so, trying to EQ bass manually with mixed success but then I gave up, even sold my Chord Qutest stand-alone DAC not to be tempted to experiment manually ever again, let my Denon 6500 set up the curve etc automatically with its measurement mic, and was happy ever since. Now everything (movies, Amazon music etc) is hassle-free and I’m super happy. I was wondering whether adding a good external amp would make sound better, purchased NAD m28 but nope, almost same excellent sound quality.

p.s. don’t know anything about external crossovers, but your Denon has a perfect built in crossover, set it up for 80 Hz for your speakers, let Denon figure out the rest.
 

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Nwickliff

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Did you also played the sine waves at the problematic frequencies with REW? Can you tell what your biggest problems are?
No, need to try this next. I have to wait until my wife is out of the house. She works from home these days. You guys should see how fast I bust out my mic and laptop and HDMI cable when she runs to the grocery store, hahaha!!!!
 
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