Help with biwiring logic

[Sal1950]

I can't see a feedback loop. In a well connected circuit not even a parasitic loop. You may be confusing feedback with back-EMF. You will find much about that on the WWW.

I turned off my ignore of northsky to see what all this was about.
Don't let Peter Pan get to you Wonbat. His mind went to mush years ago, must be the drugs. He is best left on IGNORE

 

[amirm]

This doesn't sound right. Can somebody explain what's going on here? Full article is found here .
https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/

I read through that link and the referenced AES paper. 90% of what is in that link is immaterial to what is presented at the end. What's more, all that there is there is replication of the AES paper, A NEW CLASS OF IN-BAND MULTITONE TEST SIGNALS Jon M. Risch, Peavey Electronics Corp., Meridian, MS. USA

Here is the relevant portion of that AES paper:

I have highlighted a key section. They used a current transformer for measurements. Current Transformers (CTs) are coils that wrap around a cable to measure the AC current. Their main usage is in power measurements and AC clamp meters where you can measure currents without disturbing the circuit (it works through insulation).

Its use here however is a mistake. A CT is likely to have its own non-linearities which would be level sensitive. It certainly would have more non-linearity than any speaker cable.

It is puzzling to me why a CT was used in this application. A resistor could be used to measure the voltage drop across it instead. Or why even current is used at all.

Assuming the non-linearity is caused by the CT, of course it would be level sensitive. Measuring the much smaller current going through the tweeter bi-wire connection naturally shows a lot less intermodulation distortion. Inversely, as they show, measuring the woofer cable sans tweeter shows slightly less intermodulation.

Net, net, all that is observed here is that the current is split into two cables. There is no evidence of distortion reduction.

Subjectively 40 dB of intermodulation distortion as claimed would be huge sonically. As such, anyone would be able to hear such effects where in reality we know that is not the case.

 

[DonH56]

To my mind it is the normal mixing of misapplied science with hyperbole and misdirection to raise FUD and make a sale. I imagine many remember the cable adverts showing huge differences in roll-off without bothering to label the X and Y axes so you couldn't see the actual change was fractions of a dB and rolloff in the MHz region. Scientifically correct, completely inaudible, and if not out and out false advertising certainly unethical and immoral -- to me, anyway. The bi-wiring article strikes me as similar -- sure the current looks much different, readily understandable, but the audible impact is zilch. Paraphrasing: "Measurements don't lie, but liars can measure." Measurement context and application is important. We can measure most things way beyond what we can hear but you'll never convince someone who has decided otherwise that is true. The converse also happens; at times the brain/ear interface leads us to new measurements and better understanding. This ain't one of them IME/IMO.

 

[NorthSky]

I look @ all aspects Amir, that's the way science works best.
I appreciate everyone's contribution, without any exception.
I make no judgement; nothing is absolute in audio. There are too many parameters when it comes to sound reproduction in all our different rooms with different gear.

The bi-wiring science is not absolute; there are many different views.
I am always open, but I don't take any single view as the definitive view.

 

[NorthSky]

To my mind it is the normal mixing of misapplied science with hyperbole and misdirection to raise FUD and make a sale. I imagine many remember the cable adverts showing huge differences in roll-off without bothering to label the X and Y axes so you couldn't see the actual change was fractions of a dB and rolloff in the MHz region. Scientifically correct, completely inaudible, and if not out and out false advertising certainly unethical and immoral -- to me, anyway. The bi-wiring article strikes me as similar -- sure the current looks much different, readily understandable, but the audible impact is zilch. Paraphrasing: "Measurements don't lie, but liars can measure." Measurement context and application is important. We can measure most things way beyond what we can hear but you'll never convince someone who has decided otherwise that is true. The converse also happens; at times the brain/ear interface leads us to new measurements and better understanding. This ain't one of them IME/IMO.

With all due respect Don I disagree again with you in regards to selling more cables in bi-wiring application. I think it's a prejudment, a blindness, a false misconception, a psychologic preconditionment.

To you it might appear that there is no difference with your ears, but it's your ears, not others. I don't disagree that the difference is minimal to most. But as little the difference is it still exists.

I'm not here to fight between the scientists and the audiophiles, only to bring peace between, a reason.

 

[amirm]

With all due respect Don I disagree again with you in regards to selling more cables in bi-wiring application. I think it's a prejudment, a baiser blindness, a false misconception.

No, that is how the industry works. I was once talking to one of the major electronics distributors. He said we should source our TVs through them. I asked him how his prices to us would compare to what he big box stores were selling them for. To my surprise, he said our cost could be higher than what they sold to consumers! I asked him how it made sense for us to buy product through him then and his answer was to sell extended warranty and cables to make up for it.

 

[amirm]

I'm not here to fight between the scientists and the audiophiles, only to bring peace between.

Repeating audiophile beliefs is not a path to that. We have all heard what they believe in. Our mission here is to explore audio engineering and science. It is not to accept unscientific ones.

 

[NorthSky]

• https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38297-bi-wire-vs-double-runs/

Google: The Real Science Behind Audio Speaker Wires.
_____

 

[NorthSky]

C'mon Amir, we are here to explore behind all curtains. The TV salesman with his prices has a job to do, survival. And it's important to have fun, relax and take nothing too seriously in audio because it is ephemeral. If nobody was disagreeing all doors would be closed and everyone would stay home.

I believe in nothing more than what is.
What is? Well, I'm still reading that pdf audio file ... it talks about bi-wiring in scientific language with mathematical equations and representative graphs. It's in simple terms, nothing complex, easy to read and absorb - by Waldo Nell - September 7, 2016

 

[amirm]

C'mon Amir, we are here to explore behind all curtains.

No. This forum was specifically created to focus on one path. One truth north. Our compass points to where the audio science is. We don't chase random ideas about audio. There are many other forums for that.

We believe in what we can prove. Not by plurality of belief. But by standing on the shoulders of many researchers and engineers. And the sum total of what we know here to be based on the same.

We were brought what seemed to be an engineering analysis and we have investigated it. There is no room, nor is it proper to point to random links of people believing otherwise.

 

[NorthSky]

Wow, right on! Amir, I got you going here for a sec.

* I'm trying to share that pdf file link by Waldo Nell.
How do you post the pdf link; I tried but it says that it's too large.

 

[watchnerd]

My speakers have two sets of binding posts; should I biwire them and why?
Or why not?

You should rip out the analog crossover and go "external active" with a DSP crossover.

That will blow any biwiring out of the water.

 

[NorthSky]

You should rip out the analog crossover and go "external active" with a DSP crossover.

That will blow any biwiring out of the water.

I knew it; I knew that eventually someone would come up with it. ...Awesome!

 

[Wombat]

C'mon Amir, we are here to explore behind all curtains. The TV salesman with his prices has a job to do, survival. And it's important to have fun, relax and take nothing too seriously in audio because it is ephemeral. If nobody was disagreeing all doors would be closed and everyone would stay home.

I believe in nothing more than what is.
What is? Well, I'm still reading that pdf audio file ... it talks about bi-wiring in scientific language with mathematical equations and representative graphs. It's in simple terms, nothing complex, easy to read and absorb - by Waldo Nell - September 7, 2016

As if you can discern 'scientific language' and 'mathematical equations' to be meaningful. It says a lot re your claim to be an intellectual.

You are showing yourself to be gullible to on-line audio nonsense.

 

[NorthSky]

As if you can discern 'scientific language' and 'mathematical equations' to be meaningful. It says a lot re your claim to be an intellectual.

You are showing yourself to be gullible to on-line audio nonsense.

You my daddy? ...A bi-wired dad.

 

[JJB70]

There is an old truism that the most effective lies and deception are based on a kernel of truth, something good marketing types understand very well. Take a bit of accurate info (such as the skin effect in cables) and then misrepresent this shamelessly to the point it basically becomes a lie to dupe people. However, in some ways marketing people are pushing against an open door as many of their customers want to believe all this nonsense and willingly embrace all the pseudo-scientific marketing spin and chicanery. And when it becomes little more than a lifestyle accessory and luxury good to display wealth then whether or not it actually works is almost irrelevant to the customers buying it anyway. In that respect hi-fi has a lot in common with the wellness industry and snake oil like anti-aging creams etc.

 

[NorthSky]

It's all fine by me, there is nothing, nothing to get anal about it. No one gets hurt. It's a free audio journalism world.

 

[Wombat]

You my daddy? ...A bi-wired dad.

God forbid. No, my children are within the bounds of normal. Good-luck with your search, though.

 

[NorthSky]

https://www.waldonell.com/static/.../Science%20Behind%20Speaker%20Wires.pdf

 

[Wombat]

It's all fine by me, there is nothing, nothing to get anal about it. No one gets hurt. It's a free audio journalism world.

Trolling is not journalism and this is not a pulpit for streams of unconsciousness. Just so you understand the difference.