Help with biwiring logic

[Sal1950]

Amazing when you think about what the audio industry tries to get for wire.
If you have really demanding speakers from both an impedance and very low sensitivity design, the market is right there in front of your eyes.
Available in various colors so you don't get your polarity confused like Ray, or just want to do some interior design work to show your artistic side. A couple minutes spent googling and you'll be all set at bargain basement, Sal the Audio Cheapskate, prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Gauge-Premium-Extra-Flexible-Welding/dp/B00KD2756W

 

[Blumlein 88]

You should see all the wine already stacked here.

But this subject about biwiring and its beneficial uses, its measurements, its sound, etc., is fascinating to me, very. A very prestigious speaker manufacturer (I have several speakers from that designer) is giving me the go ahead in bi-wiring his/my speakers.

I simply obliged, and I'm bi-wiring them, without extreme prejudice.
And as I said previously; bi-amping is for another thread.
I want strictly stays with the tropic of bi-wiring measurements and sound benefits.
...Exclusively and exquisitely.

I saw the graphs above and have read the explanations.
What I would like now is to see new, true real measurements with a real scientific audio sound meaning. Do we have that or do we need to create them? ...Carefully measure the difference between single-wiring and bi-wiring.

That is all I'm interested in in this thread right here right now.
Everything else is just humor and cheap whiskey, or wining on wines.
I want black on white picture, matter of fact audio scientific analysis.
And what I want I always get. It's only a question of time.
Nothing can stop science advancement, not even nuclear bombs.

Now beyond my goofy sprinkler analogy if you want to know about the circuit between amp, speaker cable, crossovers and speaker drivers all you need is to use Kirchoff's law and the Thevenin theorem to analyze what will happen. You could do measurements, but they'll simply confirm that analysis. In short, at audio frequencies, if you have a large enough gauge cable there is no advantage to bi-wiring. What is large enough is determined by how long the cable is and the amount of current it will be carrying.

 

[Wombat]

I Googled Bi-wiring analysis and got this basic explanation:

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire/Page1.html

It was simple Googling. Bob, I suppose you could have done it, too.

 

[NorthSky]

What about the "Feedback" effect?
____

It's a nice article, but scientifically incomplete.

"Thus we can conclude that there may be a small effect due to bi-wiring, but the above tends to imply it may normally be so small as to have little significance. In order to say more, a detailed model of specific realistic systems, and/or some precise measurements, would be required. These might reveal a more noticeable effect in some cases, but the above taken by itself implies the effects will usually be very small if low series impedance cables are used. It is also perhaps worth bearing in mind that - even in a case where any change in frequency response is large enough to be audible - this does not establish that the bi-wired arrangement will inevitably then be “better” than using a single cable. That would depend upon the circumstances of use, and the preferences of the listener."
_____

Extra: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/condescendence

 

[Blumlein 88]

Any effect is very small to audibly non-existent. Only in some odd pathological cases could it matter. Like using 16 gauge wire with inefficient speakers with 100 feet of speaker wire.

If you've got 27 pairs of spare cables doing nothing except laying in a drawer, then okay might as well use one pair to bi-wire. If it makes you feel better than it has been a benefit.

 

[NorthSky]

I agree that I cannot tell any sound difference. So I simply leave them in bi-wiring mode because I've already had extra speaker wires from years past. ...Multistrand copper, 6N purity, Esoteric (Erotica), 10AWG, all that audio speaker wire science jazz.

Oh, and I made sure to remove the gold links between the low and high frequency speaker driver binding posts.

* 27 pairs is an approximation, but I know it's more than two dozens.
My friend must have fifty to hundred extra speaker wire pairs; he is an ultra hi-yen audiophile (classical orchestral and chamber emphasis). He be-wires everything, even his coffee maker; double espresso cappuccino. ...It's a joke. Without laughing in life it would be extremely dull. And some hiyen audiofiles are. It's a fact.

 

[Wombat]

What about the "Feedback" effect?
____

It's a nice article, but scientifically incomplete.

"Thus we can conclude that there may be a small effect due to bi-wiring, but the above tends to imply it may normally be so small as to have little significance. In order to say more, a detailed model of specific realistic systems, and/or some precise measurements, would be required. These might reveal a more noticeable effect in some cases, but the above taken by itself implies the effects will usually be very small if low series impedance cables are used. It is also perhaps worth bearing in mind that - even in a case where any change in frequency response is large enough to be audible - this does not establish that the bi-wired arrangement will inevitably then be “better” than using a single cable. That would depend upon the circumstances of use, and the preferences of the listener."
_____

Extra: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/condescendence

Any more 'what abouts'?

 

[NorthSky]

 

[garbulky]

Note the bi-wired measurement shows the current in the tweeter cable and thus bass current is attenuated. If you measured the summed (combined) currents from the amp there should be no change unless the wires are really lossy (bad). So yes, there is less tweeter energy in the bass wire, and less bass energy in the tweeter wire, but it is not the wires that cause (significant) distortion -- it is the amplifier and speaker drivers themselves, neither of which are impacted significantly (if at all) by bi-wiring.

Marketing.

Why should the single wire vs bi wire change the energy measured in the tweeter wire? I guess they should clarify exactly where the probe is...

 

[DonH56]

Why should the single wire vs bi wire change the energy measured in the tweeter wire? I guess they should clarify exactly where the probe is...

Because a single wire carries woofer and tweeter current; bi-wiring means the woofer wire carries only woofer current, tweeter wire tweeter current, though voltage is the same for both. A plot of voltage would show the same voltage applied to woofer and tweeter (less changes due to wire loss, insignificant in practice).

Single wire:
Amp -> single cable -> woofer + tweeter = single cable carries all current

Bi-wire:
Amp -> woofer cable -> woofer = woofer cable carries only woofer current; crossover reduces tweeter current to woofer
Amp -> tweeter cable -> tweeter = tweeter cable carries only tweeter current; crossover reduces woofer current to tweeter

The crossover makes the woofer look like a higher impedance to the tweeter cable so tweeter current is reduced in the woofer wire, and likewise the tweeter crossover makes a higher impedance to the woofer cable for tweeter current, so there is less interaction in the wire. The net energy the amp delivers, and that the woofer and tweeter each receive, is the same whether you use a single wire or bi-wire. The wire itself contributes negligibly to distortion and so the bi-wire argument is a red herring (is a false argument). The amplifier and speakers dominate (by orders of magnitude) the distortion.

HTH - Don

 

[sergeauckland]

Just to add to Don's post, in a linear system, which cables most certainly are, the Superposition Principle applies, which ensures that currents at one frequency don't have any effect on currents at another frequency, so bi-wiring cannot (and doesn't) have any effect.

S

 

[Wombat]

Meaningless to me.

 

[Wombat]

What about the "Feedback" effect?
____

It's a nice article, but scientifically incomplete.

"Thus we can conclude that there may be a small effect due to bi-wiring, but the above tends to imply it may normally be so small as to have little significance. In order to say more, a detailed model of specific realistic systems, and/or some precise measurements, would be required. These might reveal a more noticeable effect in some cases, but the above taken by itself implies the effects will usually be very small if low series impedance cables are used. It is also perhaps worth bearing in mind that - even in a case where any change in frequency response is large enough to be audible - this does not establish that the bi-wired arrangement will inevitably then be “better” than using a single cable. That would depend upon the circumstances of use, and the preferences of the listener."
_____

Extra: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/condescendence

I can't see a feedback loop. In a well connected circuit not even a parasitic loop. You may be confusing feedback with back-EMF. You will find much about that on the WWW.

 

[NorthSky]

Because a single wire carries woofer and tweeter current; bi-wiring means the woofer wire carries only woofer current, tweeter wire tweeter current, though voltage is the same for both. A plot of voltage would show the same voltage applied to woofer and tweeter (less changes due to wire loss, insignificant in practice).

Single wire:
Amp -> single cable -> woofer + tweeter = single cable carries all current

Bi-wire:
Amp -> woofer cable -> woofer = woofer cable carries only woofer current; crossover reduces tweeter current to woofer
Amp -> tweeter cable -> tweeter = tweeter cable carries only tweeter current; crossover reduces woofer current to tweeter

The crossover makes the woofer look like a higher impedance to the tweeter cable so tweeter current is reduced in the woofer wire, and likewise the tweeter crossover makes a higher impedance to the woofer cable for tweeter current, so there is less interaction in the wire. The net energy the amp delivers, and that the woofer and tweeter each receive, is the same whether you use a single wire or bi-wire. The wire itself contributes negligibly to distortion and so the bi-wire argument is a red herring (is a false argument). The amplifier and speakers dominate (by orders of magnitude) the distortion.

HTH - Don

With all due respect Don, and to your "technical expert" status, I am going to disagree with you. In today's prehistoric audio measuring tools and unexplored audio science, the dark abyss of audio depth is the domain of true explorers, the people open with their ears and the knowledge...how to use the tools best.

I am not an expert, but I am an audio aficionado and an intellect. I have been for all my life, since I was listening to my Mom's heartbeat...inside her belly.

I have read extensively and I have been a sound wave explorer in more ways than not.

This thread was started with couple graphs:
• https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/

That is the full article, which was provided by the OP, and a must read.

In addition, without linking approximately one million more articles including Bell, here's a good example of a site where you have to scroll down passed all the garbage crap toxic cancer disease bull audio adds (without they wouldn't exist), before you get to the heart of the matter in space, science, reality and down-to-earth scientific factual evidence in real true parlance and physical applications...music reproduction as heard by the human ears.

• http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/aud...wire-or-single-wire-and-what-about-bi-amping/
_____

Now, before you reply to say your ground, please take the time to read with controlled application and absorption.

Like I said; I respect your technical expertise, and your musicianship, your trumpetism (musical trumpet instrument humor - it's in my sig too), ...it's just that I don't fully agree with your incomplete analysis of bi-wiring vs single wiring descriptive statement.

Cheers,

 

[NorthSky]

Meaningless to me.

Why so serious!

I can't see a feedback loop. In a well connected circuit not even a parasitic loop. You may be confusing feedback with back-EMF. You will find much about that on the WWW.

Yes, feedback...EMF, bravo.
I know, I am familiar with the World Wide Web, very.

 

[NorthSky]

Question: Is it the fear of purchasing another pair of speaker wires that drive and divide some audio scientists to advance?

 

[SIY]

That is the full article, which was provided by the OP, and a must read.

I would agree- it IS a must-read. If one is to understand the depths to which practitioners will go to hoodwink the technically naive in the pursuit of money, articles like this are important to understand the tactics used by the dishonest.

 

[NorthSky]

Most dishonest people are blind.

 

[Wombat]

Deja Vu:

On John Risch claims: http://forums.audioreview.com/audio-lab-tweaks-mods-diy/jon-risch-distortion-test-signal-6529.html see post #11.

He claimed to be a Senior Project Engineer at Peavey Electronics: https://books.google.com.au/books?i...ECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=john risch peavey&f=false but I cannot substantiate this position.
There is reference to him being at Peavey and writings, here:
https://docplayer.net/5476553-Aus-h...w-test-signal-phi-spectral-contamination.html

He has a presence on online audio forums as a cable/interconnect as an'improvement means' advocate.

FWIW: For those with AES access: http://www.aes.org/publications/preprints/preprints_search.cfm

Not much to see.

 

[amirm]

In addition, without linking approximately one million more articles including Bell, here's a good example of a site where you have to scroll down passed all the garbage crap toxic cancer disease bull audio adds (without they wouldn't exist), before you get to the heart of the matter of space, science, reality and down-to-earth scientific factual evidence in real true parlance and physical applications...music reproduction as heard by the human ears.

• http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/aud...wire-or-single-wire-and-what-about-bi-amping/
_____

Now, before you reply to say your ground, please take the time to read with controlled application and absorption.

I glanced through that link. That is pure subjectivism Bob and has no weight in this forum. Here, we are guided by audio science and engineering. The latter is what Don explained. Some blog subjectivist post is not a counter to that in any form or fashion here.