Help to align Genelec 8341's with standard pair of subwoofers

[Sparky]

Hi all.

I have dumped all my passive gear in favour of an "active" set up as I feel that this is the way forward.
After spending a long time reading reviews and scouring the internet, I landed on a pair of Genelec 8341's.
The in depth reviews and discussion on this forum certainly helped with my purchase and I'm over the moon with them!

Now I have learned how to use the GLM software, it is now time to get serious as far as not only making them work well in my small UK lounge, but also, blend them with my pair of subwoofers. This is not proving as easy as I had hoped and now I'm seeking some guidance on how best to go about this.
I would also like to understand what the measurements mean as far as any "peaks" and "nulls" are concerned.

My lounge is a family room first and listening room second as my wife keeps telling me so there is no chance of any room treatment before anyone mentions it!

My set up is as follows:

Intel NUC fanless case working as ROON ROCK -> USB -> MinidspSHD
Nvidia Shield -> HDMI -> TV
Satellite Box -> HDMI -> TV
PS4 -> HDMI -> TV
TV - TOSLINK -> MinidspSHD

Genelec 8341 L -> Output 1 -> (Coax to AES/EBU with 110 Ohm converter) MinidspSHD
Genelec 8341 R -> Output 2 -> (Coax to AES/EBU with 110 Ohm converter) MinidspSHD
BK Electronics XXLS400 12 inch sealed driver - Output 3 -> (RCA) - MinidspSHD
BK Electronics XXLS400 12 inch sealed driver - Output 4 -> (RCA) - MinidspSHD

The above works a treat as far as ease of use is concerned and I'm very surprised that I've suffered with zero lip sync issues with using TOSLINK.
I thought, if anything, I would be continually messing with the delays in the TV to fix it but I'm lucky it all works out of the box.

Below is a screenshot of my latest GLM efforts in my lounge which measures L- 4.2 Metres W - 3.8 Metres H - 2.8 Metres



This is only the left speaker which is placed in a corner unfortunately. I know I will never get rid of the large peaks and nulls due to positioning.
I forgot to screenshot the right speaker.

Below is a screenshot of my speakers using REW:



And my subs:



The mains are with GLM running and the subs are just playing on their own without any EQ or delays applied.

I used the "individual" measurement option in the GLM software as they are certainly not symmetrically placed but, if you look at how they measure together in REW, they look a mess!

Anyway, I'll end it here for now but any advice you guys could give to help me set my system up would be greatly appreciated!

 

[abdo123]

The information in this thread is invaluable and will get you 95% of the way.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-aligning-subwoofer-s-to-mains-how-to.15269/


What you need to do with two subwoofers is to align them first. this is only necessary if the subwoofers are not identical or if the couch is not dead center between the two subs.

my listening position was ~40 cm closer to one of the subs so i had to add 0.5 ms of delay to get them aligned. you can use the information in the thread to figure out the exact delay you need.

From that point, you run the subwoofers in mono like this

to align the subwoofers to mains, use one speaker as acoustic reference. and align the other to the subwoofers (subwoofers combined mono output). if the listening position is dead center between left and right speakers, then aligning the subwoofers to one speaker should align it with the other speaker.

 

[Sparky]

The information in this thread is invaluable and will get you 95% of the way.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-aligning-subwoofer-s-to-mains-how-to.15269/


What you need to do with two subwoofers is to align them first. this is only necessary if the subwoofers are not identical of if the coach is not dead center between the two subs.

my listening position was ~40 cm closer to one of the subs so i had to add 0.5 ms of delay to get them aligned. you can use the information in the thread to figure out the exact delay you need.

From that point, you run the subwoofers in mono like this

View attachment 139459

to align the subwoofers to mains, use one speaker as acoustic reference. and align the other to the subwoofers (subwoofers combined mono output). if the listening position is dead center between left and right speakers, then aligning the subwoofers to one speaker should align it with the other speaker.

Hi!

Thank you for the link! I appreciate it very much.

There is so much misinformation out there that I got lost in all the info and couldn't see what was correct and incorrect.
I've took a huge gamble in selling all my passive gear in favour of active and I'm really eager to make sure I'm getting the best I can out ofwhat I have!

Yes, my room isn't perfectly shaped and my speakers aren't ideally positioned but this shouldn't stop me from getting the most out of what I have.

I have chose a sweet spot in the centre of the couch but the subs are not placed equidistant.
My left sub is next to the couch (1 metre from where I sit) and the right sub is around 2 metres from where I sit on the right in front of the right speaker.
Your routing is not what I have done as a friend told me I should not sum them both but I'll do as you suggest as that's how I had it set up in the first place!

 

[Sparky]

One strange thing I have noticed is that trying to set up a crossover within the GLM software isn't possible.
I have them set up to be measured individually yet, when I choose say, an 80hz crossover, they still play full range?

 

[abdo123]

I would use the MiniDSP SHD for crossover (Use LFE input on the subwoofer), It's good to start with LR 24db/oct for the subwoofers and and BW 24db/oct for the speakers. I personally like to cross my speakers a little higher than the default as well (100-110Hz).

Once you got your measurments, all you have to do is apply FDW and fiddle with the REW alignment tool to get a healthy summation (by adjusting the delay) the black line is the hypothetical aligned sum with the delays in action.

 

[Trell]

One strange thing I have noticed is that trying to set up a crossover within the GLM software isn't possible.
I have them set up to be measured individually yet, when I choose say, an 80hz crossover, they still play full range?

Nope. Have a look at my post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-set-as-large-in-avr.20168/page-2#post-835870

Note that the Genelec crossover is a steep 8th order Linkwitz-Riley 48 db/octave.

You posted in that short thread, just saying

 

[abdo123]

Note that the Genelec crossover is a steep 8th order Linkwitz-Riley 48 db/octave.

a bit strange it's that steep. Genelcs definitely don't need such slopes so it only introduces messiness in the phase.

 

[hege]

a bit strange it's that steep. Genelcs definitely don't need such slopes so it only introduces messiness in the phase.

To quote Genelec (link): "we have a rapid crossover to minimise audio colouration effects". The phase is DSP linearized on S360 though, so there is no messiness. Could have some marginal effect for sub crossovers, dunno, I guess it's simpler to program the same 48db crossover inside every DSP. Of course ideally they would allow setting any hz and filter for expert users..

(Sorry for off topic)

 

[Sparky]

I would use the MiniDSP SHD for crossover (Use LFE input on the subwoofer), It's good to start with LR 24db/oct for the subwoofers and and BW 24db/oct for the speakers. I personally like to cross my speakers a little higher than the default as well (100-110Hz).

Once you got your measurments, all you have to do is apply FDW and fiddle with the REW alignment tool to get a healthy summation (by adjusting the delay) the black line is the hypothetical aligned sum with the delays in action.

View attachment 139464

Thank you abdo. This is great info!

 

[Sparky]

Nope. Have a look at my post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-set-as-large-in-avr.20168/page-2#post-835870

Note that the Genelec crossover is a steep 8th order Linkwitz-Riley 48 db/octave.

You posted in that short thread, just saying

Ah yes, sorry mate. You're right of course!

 

[Sparky]

I think the best bet would be to allow the 8341's to play full range and let the minidsp do the crossover as adbo suggested.

 

[hege]

I have them set up to be measured individually yet, when I choose say, an 80hz crossover, they still play full range?

Are you confusing GLM calibration with "playing full range"? Calibration itself is done full range on purpose, it doesn't care about the settings.

 

[Sparky]

Can I ask. Why, when playing both mains full range and measuring does the measurement look really bad! Should I not just calibrate then symmetrically instead to achieve a better response??

 

[Sparky]

Are you confusing GLM calibration with "playing full range"? Calibration itself is done full range on purpose, it doesn't care about the settings.

That could be the case. I'll measure now to see the outcome.

 

[hege]

I think the best bet would be to allow the 8341's to play full range and let the minidsp do the crossover as adbo suggested.

Yes, there is no reason to use GLM for anything else than setting the fixed volume level. Just use the miniDSP's full potential for everything (including designing EQ with REW, or using Dirac). It'll be simpler that way.

 

[Trell]

Yes, there is no reason to use GLM for anything else than setting the fixed volume level. Just use the miniDSP's full potential for everything (including designing EQ with REW, or using Dirac). It'll be simpler that way.

Setting the standby time (ISS) is done by GLM, and can be handy to change.

 

[Sparky]

Ok. I'll just use the minidsp for all crossovers and EQing from now on. It's a much more flexible program anyway IMO.

 

[hege]

Setting the standby time (ISS) is done by GLM, and can be handy to change.

Sure. Though it might not even work if SHD keeps the digital signal always on..

 

[Sparky]

Can I ask what the suck outs at around 200hz on the left speaker and peak at 1Khz would be?

 

[abdo123]

View attachment 139469

Can I ask what the suck outs at around 200hz on the left speaker and peak at 1Khz would be?

how close are your speakers to the wall?