Help - RME ADI-2 experts and preamp suggestions

[muslhead]

I currently have a tube preamp that i am looking to replace with s/s. Connected to the existing pre in my system are an oppo 105 (5% use), phono (10% use) and rendu/NAS streaming flac and dsf to a chord qutest dac (85% use). Through some great feedback and ideas posted on this forum, i found and researched the RME ADI-2 Pro FS all black (has to be black) and thought it could serve as a preamp since it has both digital and analog (1) inputs (assuming i could use my phono preamp output in the RME analog input). Since I would no longer need the qutest, I could use the sale of it and my preamp to fund the RME purchase. It appears as if the change in dac would be lateral spec-wise but the increased functionality of the RME DSP becomes a compelling argument for the switch.

The only problem i see perceive with this solution is playing of my dsf files which constitutes the largest portion of my listening. Apparently within the RME, if i don't want the files converted to pcm and instead played dsd direct, i lose not only the analyzer/tone controls but most importantly the ability to control volume levels. If that is the case, i would need another preamp in between the RME and amps to control the volume. There are a few reasonable cost effective ideas (schiit freya ) to do that. But i have just added another $700 to the cost of the replacement. Of course, some will say dont play your damn dsd files as they are no better than cds (and playing cds you dont lose the volume or tone controls) but that is not an option as have a pretty large number of them (~300). For those RME experts, am i missing something wrt the loss of tone and volume controls with dsd direct playback? are there ways around it (conversion or over to dop?)

Another option would be to buy the mcintosh c53 which would be a HUGE wallet lightener but do everything i want in one unit. Oh, did i mention the blue vu meters and built in 8 band tone control on front of unit? Not sure i want to spend that much but i may be able to get one a bit less than list ($8k)

A final option would be to find a good analog line preamp (benchmark la-4 for example) and keep the current qutest / rendu/nas solution. But with this i lose the dsp and tone control functionality the RME brings.
What else?

Ok everyone, light up the response board would ya please!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Not an RME expert and don't own one. And my suggestion is one you already have sort of marked off. All things considered, the RME just offers a lot to improve the rest of your system that no other options offer. I'd software convert the DSF files to DXD and play them that way. I wouldn't do the conversion real time rather ahead of time and save them in separate files. It is what many recordings do in order to edit DSF material.

Maybe you could convert a few of your favorite files and do a blind listening comparison with the gear you have. Maybe you can't hear a difference in which case you have nothing to worry about by converting to a high rate PCM format.

 

[muslhead]

Not an RME expert and don't own one. And my suggestion is one you already have sort of marked off. All things considered, the RME just offers a lot to improve the rest of your system that no other options offer. I'd software convert the DSF files to DXD and play them that way. I wouldn't do the conversion real time rather ahead of time and save them in separate files. It is what many recordings do in order to edit DSF material.

Maybe you could convert a few of your favorite files and do a blind listening comparison with the gear you have. Maybe you can't hear a difference in which case you have nothing to worry about by converting to a high rate PCM format.

I think, but not sure, the conversion buys me nothing with RME as dxd files remove ability to control volume and tone controls. But, if i a wrong, what you suggested is worthwhile. thanks

 

[Matias]

Apparently within the RME, if i don't want the files converted to pcm and instead played dsd direct, i lose not only the analyzer/tone controls but most importantly the ability to control volume levels. If that is the case, i would need another preamp in between the RME and amps to control the volume. There are a few reasonable cost effective ideas (schiit freya ) to do that. But i have just added another $700 to the cost of the replacement. Of course, some will say dont play your damn dsd files as they are no better than cds (and playing cds you dont lose the volume or tone controls) but that is not an option as have a pretty large number of them (~300). For those RME experts, am i missing something wrt the loss of tone and volume controls with dsd direct playback? are there ways around it (conversion or over to dop?)

Indeed using DSD Direct mode you would lose volume and DSP features in order to run it purely as DSD in the AKM chip. But there are some options.

1. Don't run it in DSD Direct mode, let the ADI-2 convert to PCM. It is still high res PCM, sounds great and volume/DSP keeps working.

2. Use HQPlayer, either alone or with Roon, and it can control volume in DSD mode, along with high rate DSD upsampling if you wish. But you would lose the volume on the other inputs (vinyl, Oppo).

3. A mix of both: DSD Direct enabled + HQ Player for network streaming, and normal DSD Direct disabled for the rest (vinyl, Oppo)?

Personally I would just disable DSD Direct and run it high res PCM with volume and DSP features available.

PS: the analog inputs are digitized (AD conversion). Would not be a big deal for me, but to some purists it may be a deal breaker.

 

[muslhead]

[QUOTE="the analog inputs are digitized (AD conversion). Would not be a big deal for me, but to some purists it may be a deal breaker.[/QUOTE]
I did no know that, i considered it but the manual led me to believe it was passed through. i guess thats not possible if i can be changed via the dsp.
Thanks, not sure its a deal breaker but definitely not something i prefer. The VU meter option is looking better all the time

 

[Matias]

How about just buy and test it as it is, DSD Direct disabled and vinyl on AD conversion, and see if you like it "stock"? If not you can return (if the seller has some trial period) or just lose a few and sell it used.

 

[vitalii427]

I think, but not sure, the conversion buys me nothing with RME as dxd files remove ability to control volume and tone controls. But, if i a wrong, what you suggested is worthwhile. thanks

No. DXD actually is PCM 352/24. So DSP/Volume should work.

 

[muslhead]

No. DXD actually is PCM 352/24. So DSP/Volume should work.

Really? ok if true, need to find software. I can convert a few files and compare them with dsd with current setup. should tell me about sound difference (likely nothing i can hear) but need confirmation on RME. you sure cause i cant find it in the manual?

 

[muslhead]

How about just buy and test it as it is, DSD Direct disabled and vinyl on AD conversion, and see if you like it "stock"? If not you can return (if the seller has some trial period) or just lose a few and sell it used.

Yup, thats an option. not my fav but one i have considered.

 

[Matias]

Yes, DXD is just a stupid marketing name for PCM 24/352 to counter DSD.

 

[muslhead]

Yes, DXD is just a stupid marketing name for PCM 24/352 to counter DSD.

Great. Looks like poikosoft (21-day trial) can do the conversion and others so conversion seems easy.
Tt looks like dxd is not bit exact like dsf, but instead a slightly less resolution dsf
Thanks

 

[Matias]

All conversions of DSD to PCM and PCM to DSD are not lossless. But still a high res PCM conversion of DSD material sounds great to me.
If you want to try, just set your software player to convert DSD to PCM 24/176 and see if you like it.

PS: I once read somewhere that about 2/3 of all SACDs released had a PCM stage before being converted to DSD!

 

[muslhead]

i will do that and see what i think. Thanks
Now, the RME A to D issue i was not aware of.

 

[CDMC]

Indeed using DSD Direct mode you would lose volume and DSP features in order to run it purely as DSD in the AKM chip. But there are some options.

1. Don't run it in DSD Direct mode, let the ADI-2 convert to PCM. It is still high res PCM, sounds great and volume/DSP keeps working.

2. Use HQPlayer, either alone or with Roon, and it can control volume in DSD mode, along with high rate DSD upsampling if you wish. But you would lose the volume on the other inputs (vinyl, Oppo).

3. A mix of both: DSD Direct enabled + HQ Player for network streaming, and normal DSD Direct disabled for the rest (vinyl, Oppo)?

Personally I would just disable DSD Direct and run it high res PCM with volume and DSP features available.

PS: the analog inputs are digitized (AD conversion). Would not be a big deal for me, but to some purists it may be a deal breaker.

This. Keep in mind, your DSD files were converted to PCM 5 or 8 bit during mixing and editing and then converted back to 1 bit DSD to give you the DSD playback. There is no such thing as 1 bit DSD from the microphone to the end user, just marketing. DSD and PCM each have their theoretical pros and cons, but in practice, there is no difference in the sound quality. If it were me, I would just convert all your DSD to 96/24 or 192/24 if you want to use the extra space on your drive and not worry about it or let the RME do it on the fly.

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd...ation,noise-shaping and upsampling algorithms.

 

[muslhead]

This. Keep in mind, your DSD files were converted to PCM 5 or 8 bit during mixing and editing and then converted back to 1 bit DSD to give you the DSD playback. There is no such thing as 1 bit DSD from the microphone to the end user, just marketing. DSD and PCM each have their theoretical pros and cons, but in practice, there is no difference in the sound quality. If it were me, I would just convert all your DSD to 96/24 or 192/24 if you want to use the extra space on your drive and not worry about it or let the RME do it on the fly.

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/#:~:text=DSD has significantly higher quantization,noise-shaping and upsampling algorithms.

I dont believe what you stated is true for my files. They were ripped from SACD's. What i was told was that the software does not convert to pcm first. Regardless, i fully understand there will LIKELY be no sound difference. That was never my issue. If this were the only issue with the RME, i would be ok but now i know the A2D conversion on the analog input has me thinking of a better, preferable one device solution.

 

[CDMC]

I dont believe what you stated is true for my files. They were ripped from SACD's. What i was told was that the software does not convert to pcm first. Regardless, i fully understand there will LIKELY be no sound difference. That was never my issue. If this were the only issue with the RME, i would be ok but now i know the A2D conversion on the analog input has me thinking of a better, preferable one device solution.

It doesn't matter whether you ripped from a SACD or downloaded your files as DSD. During mixing/mastering they were converted to 5 or 8 bit PCM, or rarely multibit DSD and then converted back to 1 bit DSD for the SACD or download. The idea of 1 bit DSD all the way through is nothing more than a story because you cannot mix in1 bit DSD, it has to be converted to multibit, either multibit DSD or PCM for mixing and production and then converted back.

Similarly, the AD/DA conversion of your vinyl will be inaudible, as it is done at a 192khz default. At best (I am saying a virgin 200gram 1/2 speed album) vinyl has 12 bits of resolution and gets to 20khz (so 44.1khz sample rate). This is the best day with a perfect alignment on the cartridge, fully isolated turntable, perfect phono preamp, and clean virgin vinyl. The simple fact is that there is no audible degradation going from vinyl through a 192khz AD/DA conversion. Keep in mind, most vinyl in the past 30 years has been cut from the same 16 bit/44.1 khz master as for the CD. In fact, the guys on the pro sound forums that actually master the albums often get a laugh at the comments that the vinyl version is so much better. Here is one such thread concerning an album that was considered better on vinyl, but was in fact cut from the same master:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/502795-soundgardens-down-upside-vinyl.html

To put it bluntly, most of the audio industry is at best, misleading about their products, and at worst outright lying. Sadly, many in the industry are willing to trade honesty for profit. Ironically, Apple is one of the most honest, asking for hi res, uncompressed masters, and distributing them as part of their normal music service, abet at 256k AAC. I used to laugh about the 256k AAC as low quality, until I found that in legitimate double blind testing, very, very, very few people can distinguish between 256k AAC and Redbook, even on the best of systems.

https://www.apple.com/itunes/mastered-for-itunes/

 

[dfuller]

During mixing/mastering they were converted to 5 or 8 bit PCM

5-8 bit PCM is way lower than what DAWs work at. Most DAW mixers work at 32 or 64 bit float (older Pro Tools HD systems work at 48 bit integer), and good quality pro A/D and D/A do at minimum 110dB SINAD.

now i know the A2D conversion on the analog input has me thinking of a better, preferable one device solution.

Not for nothing, but combined distortion of AD/DA on the ADI-2 Pro FS is extremely low. We're talking ~-117dB THD+N (117dB SINAD) A/D and -112dB THD+N D/A. Like @CDMC said, vinyl (and tape, for that matter) are far, far higher noise and distortion than that AD/DA step would be. For an all-in-one unit it doesn't get a whole lot better. The Lynx HiLo is a touch better, but it's also significantly more expensive and at that point we're splitting hairs.

 

[CDMC]

5-8 bit PCM is way lower than what DAWs work at. Most DAW mixers work at 32 or 64 bit float (older Pro Tools HD systems work at 48 bit integer), and good quality pro A/D and D/A do at minimum 110dB SINAD.

As you obviously work with this stuff, can you clarify what the workflow looks like for mixing/producing when an 1 bit DSD is the input? I for one would like to know (I know about DAWs, but have never used one) and perhaps the OP as he appears to be under the impression that 1 bit DSD is used from the microphone to the final product.

 

[dfuller]

As you obviously work with this stuff, can you clarify what the workflow looks like for mixing/producing when an 1 bit DSD is the input? I for one would like to know (I know about DAWs, but have never used one) and perhaps the OP as he appears to be under the impression that 1 bit DSD is used from the microphone to the final product.

I never work with DSD. It's all PCM. Most DAWs don't support DSD - the only one I know of that does is Merging Pyramix. So, long story short, any SACD is probably converted from a PCM master.

 

[muslhead]

its interesting to read everyone's post. I know nothing about this. I dont have the impression that 1bit is used from microphone to final product.
I just know every conversion will deviate ever so slightly from the original. So i would prefer to minimize the number of conversion (in this case analog to digital and then back to analog). will those conversions be audible? dont know but i do believe you do enough of them and it will be different. Not better, not worse but different.
Sit at a table and whisper something in someones ear and tell them to pass it on. By the time it gets back to you it will have changed. The more people the more the change. LOL
I really do appreciate the dialog as i am learning and rethinking what i do (and dont) know