Help me with car choices, please

[Rednaxela]

I never understood Toyotas design. Why drive the wheels with both the gas engine and the electric motor?

Mine doesn’t always do that. I could bring the kids to school on the electric motor only.

 

[levimax]

I have a Honda Civic Sport Touring which sounds like it might fit your requirements. Fun to drive (much more so than a Prius), great mileage, and I can fit a 9'6" surfboard inside. EV's seem OK especially around town when new but my sister just had to replace the battery pack on her Tesla, $18,000, and they still don't cut it for long trips.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I never understood Toyotas design. Why drive the wheels with both the gas engine and the electric motor?

IMO the Toyota is the cleverest hybrid system, but it is patented so only they and Lexus use it.
By having both motors driving different elements of an epicyclic gear train and the ring gear driving the output it is possible to achieve a continuously variable transmission (CVT), which is technically superior to a multiple fixed ratio transmission - so much so it is banned in Formula 1, but feels very different whilst being better for both performance and efficiency. Doing it mechanically with just one engine is very expensive and heavy.

The big gain in the Toyota design is the weight saving. The layout needs no clutch or conventional gearbox at all and reverse is achieved by running the electric motor backwards.
My personal view is that it is so far superior to any other hybrid system I wouldn't bother with a non Toyota or Lexus hybrid personally.

The downside is listening to the technically hard of understanding finding fault with the unconventional driving feel

Disclaimer, I worked on the initial Williams F1 CVT system which got banned before it raced since once everybody calculated how much better it would be but only Williams had it the worry was it would ruin competition.

I have run Priuses since 2005 when I bought one because of the cleverness of the E-CVT expecting not to like it much (it isn't sporty) and only keep t a short time but I still have the plug-in version as my daily.
The bigger battery of the plug in takes boot space and the shape of the (carbon fibre panelled) tailgate is very slanted but my Labrador goes everywhere in it with me.

 

[Multicore]

IMO the Toyota is the cleverest hybrid system, but it is patented so only they and Lexus use it.
By having both motors driving different elements of an epicyclic gear train and the ring gear driving the output it is possible to achieve a continuously variable transmission (CVT), which is technically superior to a multiple fixed ratio transmission - so much so it is banned in Formula 1, but feels very different whilst being better for both performance and efficiency. Doing it mechanically with just one engine is very expensive and heavy.

The big gain in the Toyota design is the weight saving. The layout needs no clutch or conventional gearbox at all and reverse is achieved by running the electric motor backwards.
My personal view is that it is so far superior to any other hybrid system I wouldn't bother with a non Toyota or Lexus hybrid personally.

The downside is listening to the technically hard of understanding finding fault with the unconventional driving feel

Disclaimer, I worked on the initial Williams F1 CVT system which got banned before it raced since once everybody calculated how much better it would be but only Williams had it the worry was it would ruin competition.

I have run Priuses since 2005 when I bought one because of the cleverness of the E-CVT expecting not to like it much (it isn't sporty) and only keep t a short time but I still have the plug-in version as my daily.
The bigger battery of the plug in takes boot space and the shape of the (carbon fibre panelled) tailgate is very slanted but my Labrador goes everywhere in it with me.

But if you drive the wheels only from one or more electric motors, I don't think you need variable transmission at all. For example, one electric motor direct drive on each from wheel. Done. No gearboxes needed. No?

 

[Multicore]

I have a Honda Civic Sport Touring which sounds like it might fit your requirements. Fun to drive (much more so than a Prius), great mileage, and I can fit a 9'6" surfboard inside. EV's seem OK especially around town when new but my sister just had to replace the battery pack on her Tesla, $18,000, and they still don't cut it for long trips.

Comparable price and features to the Mazda except we can get factory 16 inch rims for the Mazda and I don't see that for the Civic 5-door.

Roads in and around Boston are ridiculously bad and I fall to see how they don't continue to deteriorate.

 

[Multicore]

Mine doesn’t always do that. I could bring the kids to school on the electric motor only.

That's not what I mean. I'm questioning why the gas engine is mechanically connected to the wheels at all.

 

[Multicore]

If your car isn't breaking down all the time I would keep it another 2 or 3 years.

By that time Chinese ev's will have flooded the market and even some old well known car makers will be able to produce ev's at or below the price of internal combustion engines.

As a result the second hand market will be provided with lots of good ice cars which will drive the price down.
The alternative that I would suggest is wait 2 or 3 years and buy an ev.

Whatever you do don't spend a lot of money on an ice car because imo it will loose all its value in just a few years.

1. It is breaking down regularly now. 2k for the brakes. 2k for the clutch. Now the exhaust is rattling.

2. We can't plug in. Street parking only.

As for your prediction, we'll see. I'd expect protectionism if the industry pays both parties for it. The ROI on that makes it a no brainier. So I don't think it will be like the e bikes and scooters coming in via Alibaba.

But what do I know?

 

[Blumlein 88]

But if you drive the wheels only from one or more electric motors, I don't think you need variable transmission at all. For example, one electric motor direct drive on each from wheel. Done. No gearboxes needed. No?

I think Toyota has licensed this to Ford for their hybrids. It looks wrong at first, but in fact connecting both motors via that epicyclic gear has several advantages in efficiency, weight and cost. If you don't already know, look into how planetary gears work.

Basic 5 minute video on planetary gears.

You can read this description. They use a driving electric motor, an electric motor for starting, regenerating, and controlling ratios, and the ICE engine all connected to different gears.

eCVT Transmission - What Is It? How Does It Work? • Road Sumo

Instead of belts and pulleys such as in CVTs, the eCVT transmission uses electric motors to control the planetary gear components' speeds.

roadsumo.com

All things considered this is better than electric motors at all wheels and a conventional ICE engine connection.

 

[thewas]

That's not what I mean. I'm questioning why the gas engine is mechanically connected to the wheels at all.

Also the brand new Honda Civic hybrid does that at high speeds because at those the total efficiency is higher than going through the generator loop

 

[Frank Dernie]

But if you drive the wheels only from one or more electric motors, I don't think you need variable transmission at all. For example, one electric motor direct drive on each from wheel. Done. No gearboxes needed. No?

In an EV yes, but in a hybrid you have to find a way for the motors to share, and the IC engine definitely needs variable ratios since an IC engine has a very small range of speed where it works and that has to be mated to a wide range of road speed.

When a Prius IC engine is stationary the electric motor does drive the wheels directly, the bit of the epicyclic it uses functions as the reduction ratio which is needed anyway since the speed range of the motor is much faster than the wheel speed.
It is a supremely elegant solution which nobody else has.

 

[Marc v E]

1. It is breaking down regularly now. 2k for the brakes. 2k for the clutch. Now the exhaust is rattling.

2. We can't plug in. Street parking only.

As for your prediction, we'll see. I'd expect protectionism if the industry pays both parties for it. The ROI on that makes it a no brainier. So I don't think it will be like the e bikes and scooters coming in via Alibaba.

But what do I know?

Fair enough. I can understand why you want to get something new. (If it were me, though, I'd keep the mazda en repair the exhaust. And I can easily pay a new car.)

In the EU we have lots of car models like the mazda you mentioned, but in all fairness, if reliability is your top priority Toyota, Lexus and Mazda are your best pick.

(Personally, for ice cars I really like VW. Not the very best in one particular area, but on average imo the best choice for comfort, space and driveability. This will be my last as my next car will be an ev.)

As for the prediction, it's just a repeat of the Japanese automakers exporting to the US in the 1970-1980's, but now the Chinese. And the adoption rate of the car vs the horse in the 1910's. It's been done before. The us and eu automakers get about half of their revenue from China, making a protectionist move like import duties counter productive.

 

[Farenheit]

Why not keep the old Mazda3 as a 'dog car' for trips to the dog park/beach/vet whatever and buy a proper ball-tearing, asphalt-ripping car for those trips to the shops? YOLO.

View attachment 245430

You play hard, mate!

 

[Multicore]

Fair enough. I can understand why you want to get something new. (If it were me, though, I'd keep the mazda en repair the exhaust. And I can easily pay a new car.)

There's another motive. As of this year my wife is doing a lot more driving than me. From time to time, and sometimes to her annoyance, I say something like, "That's it! I'm going to get you an automatic."

In the EU we have lots of car models like the mazda you mentioned, but in all fairness, if reliability is your top priority Toyota, Lexus and Mazda are your best pick.

If those, then Prius is the only option. I am impressed with the asking prices of high-mileage Prius listings.

(Personally, for ice cars I really like VW. Not the very best in one particular area, but on average imo the best choice for comfort, space and driveability. This will be my last as my next car will be an ev.)

We had a Golf for about 10 years before this Mazda. In terms of shape and size it's a winner. Total maintenance costs were horrible. The behavior of the rear suspension is often frightening. And I will never buy anything from that company after they tried to poison us by combining carefully-engineered defeat devices with a massive mindf___ program that turned an obvious contradiction in terms, Clean Diesel, into a money-spinning reality.

As for the prediction, it's just a repeat of the Japanese automakers exporting to the US in the 1970-1980's, but now the Chinese. And the adoption rate of the car vs the horse in the 1910's. It's been done before. The us and eu automakers get about half of their revenue from China, making a protectionist move like import duties counter productive.

Obviously the transition to electric is underway. Prognostication requires considering what they here call "foreign policy".

 

[Marc v E]

There's another motive. As of this year my wife is doing a lot more driving than me. From time to time, and sometimes to her annoyance, I say something like, "That's it! I'm going to get you an automatic."


If those, then Prius is the only option. I am impressed with the asking prices of high-mileage Prius listings.


We had a Golf for about 10 years before this Mazda. In terms of shape and size it's a winner. Total maintenance costs were horrible. The behavior of the rear suspension is often frightening. And I will never buy anything from that company after they tried to poison us by combining carefully-engineered defeat devices with a massive mindf___ program that turned an obvious contradiction in terms, Clean Diesel, into a money-spinning reality.


Obviously the transition to electric is underway. Prognostication requires considering what they here call "foreign policy".

Good choice. Actually I agree with you on all points.

 

[Inner Space]

Roads in and around Boston are ridiculously bad and I fall to see how they don't continue to deteriorate.

Dropping by to say a friend put all-terrain tires on his Prius for this and other reasons - Yokohama Geolander G015. He loses a handful of mpg (but still gets over 50) but says the ride is way better, and the car no longer feels fragile on bad roads or rough tracks.

 

[srrxr71]

Why not keep the old Mazda3 as a 'dog car' for trips to the dog park/beach/vet whatever and buy a proper ball-tearing, asphalt-ripping car for those trips to the shops? YOLO.

View attachment 245430

Best value on earth. Thing hangs with supercars. I had 2ss 1le. What a great car. Incredible engineering and value.

 

[pseudoid]

@Multicore :: Is there another manufacturer that matches the warranty duration of Hyundai/Kia? Sounds like reliability is of big importance to you.
Have you considered if any Subaru models (although mostly awd (not fwd)) would agree with you? In the US, Subies seem to be owned by similar personalities to those who own Mazdas. [no judgement-call, here; just imho]
Heck, even the updated Corolla may be a satisfying choice at that price bracket.
--------
Unlike the rest of the manufacturers, the EV craze has not forced Toyota's hand. (WSJ free link here)
I am with CEO Akio Toyoda, based on his statements in one of his rare media appearance last week.
There is much investor pressure on Toyota to hock it's hybrid soul and go full electric (EV)!
IMHO >> 2035 full EV craze is akin to "throwing the baby out with the bath water."
CO Akio Toyoda politely calls it the industry's dirty little secret:

"...pursuing all-electric vehicles exclusively would be too narrow an approach for an auto maker that sells to customers in disparate markets around the world."

 

[bloodshoteyed]

@Multicore :: Is there another manufacturer that matches the warranty duration of Hyundai/Kia?

hardly, buuuut...it doesn't mean they're fault free by any means (first hand experience), plus absolutely low quantitites or no spare parts at all available for them in Europe (waited more than a year for a freaking engine sensor to arrive for a Kia which i sold back to them before i even got the part)

and be very careful what and for how long (different length time intervals) the warranty covers (it's from 6 months to 7 years for different parts, engine, electronics, etc.)

 

[Multicore]

Have you considered if any Subaru models (although mostly awd (not fwd)) would agree with you?

In shape and size they are an obvious option. But they are heavy and very inefficient and we have no interest in 4wd.

I looked at Hyundai/Kia models and found the same pattern a many other makers: the practical models you can load dogs into are extravagant.

Prius is popular here in Boston so I've been looking at them more closely. I think they are big enough for us.

 

[Multicore]

Heck, even the updated Corolla may be a satisfying choice at that price bracket.

If Toyota would offer a 5-door in this market then it would be an option.