Help me pick speakers for my big room!

[Oddball]

Also, putting them at the long distance as shown makes things better about direct sound, but the speakers and MLP glued to the walls won't help.
Spacial qualities will also suffer from the very long distances of the sides walls (that, I know well ) and the very reflective front wall won't help either.

Agreed. This is a very challenging space but also incredibly beautiful. Will give it some more thought as feel compelled by the architectural marvel of the space.

 

[Sokel]

Agreed. This is a very challenging space but also incredibly beautiful. Will give it some more thought as feel compelled by the architectural marvel of the space.

Even if wood is not my thing, I agree, room is beautiful and most importantly (to my taste) spacious and open (it looks like having a good view too) .
Wouldn't it make sense for the speakers to be proportionally nice?

Imagine some hORNS Uniwersum Reference in there for example

 

[Hear Here]

104dB sensitive? Oh my. How do you manage hiss on something like that?

Easy - choose an appropriate amplifier. My 107 dB speakers are 100% hiss-free powered by my NAD Master Series Class D amplifier

 

[Oddball]

Agreed. This is a very challenging space but also incredibly beautiful. Will give it some more thought as feel compelled by the architectural marvel of the space.

Easy - choose an appropriate amplifier. My 107 dB speakers are 100% hiss-free powered by my NAD Master Series Class D amplifier

Do they look fit for the room though? BTW last thing I would think of is amp.

 

[Hear Here]

Wow, I'm impressed with the breadth and depth of the responses! Thank you all (even the guy with the $40,000+ piece of speaker advice ... Yeah, that's not happening. That has exactly zero chance at WAF - and that would be even if they were invisible ). I KNOW this is a big lift, and as i said: that is my dilemma and the compromise I need to make to keep marital harmony. Or else I will just have to live with the sono(s) and / or a few bookshelf speakers scattered around (Hmm, here's an idea: how about 4 KH 150's spaced around the room? or 2 Genelec 8351's? Yes would be above budget, but I don't need an amp, then )

Here are a few more pieces of data that people have asked for: I tested myself with Decibel X and my normal listening volume is 65-70 db - with maybe some peaks at 75. The most I would go is 70-75 with some 80 peaks. So speakers don't have to put out THAT much volume. And I have included a couple of pictures of my
space: the idea would be to put the speakers either on the inside or outside of the two vertical wooden beams that frame the big window on the left side. I could put them up to 2' away from the wall. The red couch against the wall and under the painting (on the right side) would be the listening area. So tweeter to ear distance = 19-20 feet. As you can see, there are a lot of reflective surfaces, hence the need for DPS / EQ. In terms of volume, I don't know if that makes it easier or harder.

View attachment 509852View attachment 509853

A lovely conversation-generating room. How about discussing with the other half the idea of a conversation-generating speaker, rather than trying to make them invisible and unsatisfactory for delivering music? Most speakers illustrated here are ugly to be polite, but there are plenty of far more acceptable speakers - even quite large ones

My female friends regularly comment favourably on my own speakers. They can't be ignored but look good in most peoples' views. Horns can be any colour to suit the room, they can be powered by relatively inexpenside amps as they only need a few watts, can be placed close to the wall behind them and their sound is sublime. Small sweet spot but your listening position will be perfectly positioned.

Just a thought - could be found used at good prices if you are patient! My room has bigger floor area (945 sq ft) but much lower ceiling height

 

[Wolf11Man]

With that space, it's style and a budget of $6000, a DIYS build could be fantastic.
With commercial available speakers it is very hard to get anything that fits.
A 6 grand DIYS is about the equavilence of 30-60 commercial.
Even as this is may not be anyones pair of shoes, it is sure worth to be concidered.
Another option may be a pair of professionel monitors, those are about a quarter or half the price of HIFI speakers and usually active, having their own amplifiers. The usually simple optics can be an advantage, when you match them to the ambience.
Whatever speaker one will choose, a DSP is a must to match the sound to this room.
From my personal experience, some directional speakers should be best. There are quite some very good compression drivers and matching horns around, but choosing the right ones for this room may not be easy.

 

[Oddball]

A lovely conversation-generating room. How about discussing with the other half the idea of a conversation-generating speaker, rather than trying to make them invisible and unsatisfactory for delivering music? Most speakers illustrated here are ugly to be polite, but there are plenty of far more acceptable speakers - even quite large ones

My female friends regularly comment favourably on my own speakers. They can't be ignored but look good in most peoples' views. Horns can be any colour to suit the room, they can be powered by relatively inexpenside amps as they only need a few watts, can be placed close to the wall behind them and their sound is sublime. Small sweet spot but your listening position will be perfectly positioned.

Just a thought - could be found used at good prices if you are patient! My room has bigger floor area (945 sq ft) but much lower ceiling height

View attachment 509881View attachment 509882

Have seen that before and really nice. I am not much into stereo eny more, but yeah, still trying to keep up. Much smaller space than OP, but much more gear in it as multi channel. Although questionable if in OP'w space one could really get away without massive sub setup. Large space is quite the opposite from what people call room gain.

 

[Flaesh]

my normal listening volume is 65-70 db - with maybe some peaks at 75. The most I would go is 70-75 with some 80 peaks.

Which speakers were used for these measurements? It would be interesting to see measurements taken at the listening position using REW.
@olegtern , would you like to replace your speakers with something from the list in the original post, because you listen to music at a moderate volume? Why
The room is beautiful. Someone put a window where I had planned to place the subwoofers. And the sofa and the furniture around it are not suitable for rolling around on wheels. However, the possibility of occasionally sitting in a more suitable place on chairs\armchairs (may be with a table and wife) is not ruled out.
А pair of huge nice wooden custom coffins, 4772-ish, 2x15", 1.5 way, сhoose a type of wood that matches the walls (or may be shelfs, but not floor!). WGs the color of the sofa.
Or similar but compact bassless mains 15"+WG + some subs somewere..
Or perhaps really put the 4000 series (for examle) in a RAL color in a place where it's not easily visible:

There it is, on the left, on the shelf:

 

[mcdn]

If that was my space @Goran-P I'd look for some speakers that match the aesthetic as well as sounding good. Take a look at Pitt & Giblin, perhaps the Superwax Mini? https://www.pittandgiblin.com.au/swmini

They are over budget, but they are state of the art in performance. And as I sometimes remind my wife, all of my hifi gear across 3 rooms was cheaper than our curtains... Looks count for a lot.

 

[Flaesh]

all of my hifi gear across 3 rooms was cheaper than our curtains

Nice!))
BTW, is there a limiter at low frequencies when increasing the volume? (I'm just curious; this might not be very important to the OP)

 

[Imakeller]

Considering the relatively modest budget … Maybe some new-ish Klipsch Forte? He’d need to up the budget a bit for used AL-5 La Scalas. Not in black for that beautiful room, of course!

 

[Goran-P]

Thanks for the nice comments about the space - we love it. I definitely need to have “the conversation “ with wifey. Trying to gather as many options as possible to show her. JBLs are not going to happen. Sonus faber, kef r11, revels, bmrs, Elx towers plus a couple others mentioned here I think have a higher probability of WAF. Does anyone think 4 KH 150’s ‘hidden” in the bookshelves would work? Plus 2 subs.

DIY is right up my alley, actually. I am a woodworker, have done a bunch of laminating (have my own vacuum press) as well. Have CNC as well. And I love making things. I looked at the post earlier about DIY and was intrigued. Where do I learn more? What is the best DIY set of cones, crossovers, etc. ? I saw this video, and thought this was what DIY meant:

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks for the nice comments about the space - we love it. I definitely need to have “the conversation “ with wifey. Trying to gather as many options as possible to show her. JBLs are not going to happen. Sonus faber, kef r11, revels, bmrs, Elx towers plus a couple others mentioned here I think have a higher probability of WAF. Does anyone think 4 KH 150’s ‘hidden” in the bookshelves would work? Plus 2 subs.

DIY is right up my alley, actually. I am a woodworker, have done a bunch of laminating (have my own vacuum press) as well. Have CNC as well. And I love making things. I looked at the post earlier about DIY and was intrigued. Where do I learn more? What is the best DIY set of cones, crossovers, etc. ? I saw this video, and thought this was what DIY meant:

You look thru here to start? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?forums/diy-audio-forum.39/

 

[Goran-P]

Just starting to, thanks for the heads up

 

[DanielT]

Thanks for the nice comments about the space - we love it. I definitely need to have “the conversation “ with wifey. Trying to gather as many options as possible to show her. JBLs are not going to happen. Sonus faber, kef r11, revels, bmrs, Elx towers plus a couple others mentioned here I think have a higher probability of WAF. Does anyone think 4 KH 150’s ‘hidden” in the bookshelves would work? Plus 2 subs.

DIY is right up my alley, actually. I am a woodworker, have done a bunch of laminating (have my own vacuum press) as well. Have CNC as well. And I love making things. I looked at the post earlier about DIY and was intrigued. Where do I learn more? What is the best DIY set of cones, crossovers, etc. ? I saw this video, and thought this was what DIY meant:

Here you might get some inspiration of speakers that could fit in your nice room. Not to buy them but more inspiration regarding looks if you choose to go the DIY route:

Finished Speakers -- Custom Order

Finished speakers are available as a custom order. Lead time varies depending on our work schedule and build complexity. Please contact for questions at [email protected]

josephcrowe.com

Regarding the video the world's best speaker, it really isn't, but if you want to do some acoustic experiments, buy some
exciters and or tactile transducers and test:

Dayton Audio - Parts Express

Discover concealable, universal speaker solutions with tactile exciters that reproduce sound through almost any rigid surface you can apply them to.

www.parts-express.com

I've tested exciters and believe me it won't be world's best high end sound, but it was fun to experiment with them.

Edit:
Inspiration:

Spoiler: Performance Summary

• Achieves 25Hz to 25kHz with silky-smooth response in a real room that has real reflections. Not just in an anechoic chamber.
• True Constant Directivity sound pattern 25Hz to 25kHz so imaging is superb anywhere in the room
• Open-Baffle Dipole sounds great even behind the speakers
• High Efficiency—95dB 1W/1m on average. Sounds great and plays loud even with “flea watt” single=ended vacuum tube amps
• High Power Handling and High Output—100W and 115dB full range, 1000W and 125dB with subwoofer
• Near-perfect impulse response
• Near-perfect phase response
• <1% Distortion

You Can DIY! The Live-Edge Dipoles

For the speaker builders, Perry Marshall details everything there is to know about his beautiful Live-Edge Dipoles project. A design that was inspired by two slabs of birch the author brought home, allowing to finally bring to fruition his idea to build these dipoles. Marshall reveals all the...

audioxpress.com

OHIO Speaker Design Competition 2024

Parts Express 2024 competition. I only found one video. It did not contain much information, but on the other hand, you can see many exciting speakers in that short video. :D Andrew Jones was one of the judges in the competition. If anyone participated in the competition or visited the event...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[HeadDoc12]

That space is incredible. Would you be interested in adopting a 57-year-old man with a wife, 5 adult children, and 2 cats? Seriously, FWIW, the JBL 4367 is about to be replaced by the 4369. Prices will almost certainly come down as JBL and retailers try to clear their inventory, not to mention wealthy JBL fanboys selling perfectly working 4367s so they can upgrade. If you can wait a few months (or less), they might fit your budget.

 

[Ellebob]

The big question is. Have you tried any speaker in this room? Even temporary ones like a Sonos or a BT speaker? If so, did you place the speakers or speaker where you would be placing the speakers you are considering? Did you listen where you would be listening? If so were they loud enough for you?

Any of the speakers you listed would probably be good for 70db. A bit of personal preference among them and some differences in how loud they go before distortion and compression. They are all probably relatively close within a few db. If your listening level is satisfactory with whatever speaker you test then you will be fine. Get the speaker you like best for aesthetics and sound.

As many have already commented you need bigger speakers if you want to go louder at that distance. You need to see if a speaker will be loud enough for your desired listeing level. We can calculate a bit knowing how much sound decays at a given distance. You lose 6db per every doubling the distance but that is outside in an open area. in a room you might only lose 3-4db so it is tough to predict will a speaker be loud enough for your desired volume. You are on that cusp. Also, nothing worng wit using multiple pairs of speakers to get better coverage in that room.

As far as subs go I would recommend 2 or more subs. The reason we use 2 or more subs is to get a more consistent bass response thoughout the listening area. Just not possible with one sub. If using only the speakers for bass you will get a different bass response depending if the left speaker is playing the bass vs the right speaker vs both. Here is a video with one of the acoustic expert that can explain better if you want to dig further. I would be more likely to spend a little less on speakers to get at least 2 subs.

 

[Goran-P]

This is awesome! Thanks for that advice. yes, I have listened with 1 sonos speaker (the big old one, #5 I think) in the corner, and it's really only just good enough for background sound. I then used my Paradigm Signature 1 bookshelves with the REL T0 sub, and about halfway across the room, the volume was actually pretty good, but the overall sound was a little thin. It wasn't "filling the room". I did the very basic amount of EQ using the WiiM Ultra Amp's system.

I think the 2 sub idea is going to be key. What do you think about me getting 4 Neumann KH150's and 2 Power Sound Audio S2411M subs (or maybe I'd step up in the PSA line if I can source the KH's at a decent price used. Plus, I won't need amps!). The Neumanns can be 'hidden' amongst the book shelves. The specs on the KH's look good: - 39 hz @-3db with good SPL numbers as well. I Like the forward facing bass reflex cabinet. That would work well in the bookshelves. And from their website:

Recommended Listening Distance	1.0 … 2.5 m; (3'… 8')
Feasible Listening Distance	0.75 … 6.0 m; (2'6"… 18')

The the 2 reviews on here lead me to believe these could really work. What am I missing?

 

[kemmler3D]

What am I missing?

4 speakers playing stereo will tend to interfere with each other, can make the mids and highs sound a bit funny or dull. It also only gets you +3dB, so using two sets of speakers will tend to have less impact than getting a bigger speaker with more headroom or sensitivity.

I don't think it will sound bad, but it's not a "hack" in the way you'd hope. They are awesome speakers but very much not designed for your use case.

I'd concur with others that a big speaker with interesting but nice looks is a good idea.

If you are keen on DIY there is a pretty relevant thread here: '18Sound 15" and Audiohorn X-Shape 2-way build' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-15-and-audiohorn-x-shape-2-way-build.66717/

Something like this will have plenty of output and great sound quality overall ... And since you're well prepared in terms of woodworking and finishing they can look however you want...

 

[mcdn]

I think the 2 sub idea is going to be key. [...] what am I missing [re the KH150]

So, if you are keen on the idea of soffit mounting (flush mounting in the bookshelves) with a pair of subs, that does open up a lot of possibilities.

For the bookshelves I think you should look at getting speakers with wide dispersion. A lot of the active monitors, as well as all KEFs, and basically anything with a waveguide have well controlled but narrowish dispersion. In your large space and with the speakers far apart this will tend to make things sound a bit flat, without much sense of envelopment or scale. You could use 4 as you say, but it's a bit of a hack. If you could find the depth the Philharmonic BMR would be pretty much ideal (stiff the port and cross over between 60 and 80Hz to the subs).

Since you have the woodworking skills I'd recommend DIYing the subs. You get huge bang for your buck, and so long as you get the cabinet stiff and the volume roughly right you can't really mess them up, since you'll be needing DSP anyway. Plus you can make them almost any shape you want and any finish that works in the room. @suttondesign went this route for his system, and built the subs into his furniture.

So _my_ endgame would be 2 x DIY sealed subs (probably 2 x 12" drivers per sub), 2 Philharmonic BMRs (or a similarly wide design), a MiniDSP Flex to run the show, and something from @Buckeye Amps hidden away to provide the power. That comes to $1000 for sub drivers, say $500 for cabinet materials, $2300 for the BMRs, $600 for the Flex + measurement mic, and $1800 for 6x500W of amplification. $6200 total and it would sound stupendous.

There are of course lots of ways to make that cheaper, but I would stick with wide dispersion speakers of some kind