Help me decide: external phono stage or stylus?

[LTig]

Yeah pretty much my story, altho bought vinyl into the early 90s. I have somewhere near 900 LPs and a bunch of 45s too. Still have my SL1200mk2 since 85.

Same here, although I bought a lot from flee markets until end of the 90s. Replaced a Thorens TD115 by a Linn LP12 in 94 which is still running strong (but very seldom). With about 1300 LPs I've no plans to retire it.

 

[AaronJ]

After moving to a spherical stylus from an exotic one like a micro line I am never going back. I am not going to suggest that the OP would completely modify the setup to use a Denon DL103, but I even found myself getting better enjoyment out of an AT VM95C than the VM95ML. My second deck used a Denon DL110 and I absolutely love it. Spherical and conical styli are quieter because they don’t hit as much of the deep gunk buried in the bottom of the grooves. I found myself obsessing over surface noise, groove wear, and IGD when I used a VM95ML, Ortofon OM30, and Shure V15V-MR, but I am far more laid back and accepting of the flaws that may be on the record using the Denon cartridges.

 

[LTig]

It's an often made claim on this site. Amir's standard for good phono preamp headroom is not clipping with a 100mV input at any audible frequency (100mV = 26dB above the 5mV reference level). The hypothesis is that an amp that clips under a large fast transient will sound worse than one that doesn't. I've seen no evidence presented to support this hypothesis however.

I remember having read a post by @MC_RME in the thread about the ADI2 with digital RIAA deemphasis that typical klicks and pops have about 6dB more amplitude.

Further hypotheses claim that a preamp that clips will not recover quickly or will be unstable.

That depends on the design. There are a few notorious opamps which behave badly if driven into clipping but those must be avoided.

To test it one could make digital recordings of the same section of a noisy record with low and high headroom preamps, level match, then blind AB test.

Personally I am sceptical that a very large amplitude transient would always sound better than the same transient clipped to a lower level. And claims for slow recovery and instability may apply to some incompetent designs but should not be true of phono preamps in general.

I am much more sceptical about the requirement that a preeamp should not clip at all. If no amp clips very strong transients might eventually kill the speakers.

It's not difficult to design a phono preamp which clips gracefully (zero recovery time) at a level not much higher than the loudest possible input signal. It prevents disaster in the following chain and transients should sound less intrusive.

 

[DSJR]

I also have that stylus. Sound is very good, though I've not been able to compare with lesser types.

After my slightly snotty comments regarding the VM95 cartridges, I should add that the ML and SH are worthwhile upgrades if you have the VM95 body set up already.

I know, subjective, but what seems to audibly happen is the high frequencies seem t blossom as you upgrade the stylus. returning to the standard E version, the bass and mids isn't so different, but the high frequencies just seem closed in somehow.

I'd love to try one of the new generation of cheaper AT decks. Convention in my old UK dealer head tells me to look at a Rega Planar 1 and be done with it (add a Thakker DN251E stylus and you're golden here), but the new AT's do look very simple and elegant I have to say - oh, and their lids are exactly Linn/old Goldring-Lenco size too and a fraction of the price of a new Linn LP12 lid...

 

[mike70]

For people wanting some experiment about elliptical stylus lifespan

 

[mike70]

After moving to a spherical stylus from an exotic one like a micro line I am never going back. I am not going to suggest that the OP would completely modify the setup to use a Denon DL103, but I even found myself getting better enjoyment out of an AT VM95C than the VM95ML. My second deck used a Denon DL110 and I absolutely love it. Spherical and conical styli are quieter because they don’t hit as much of the deep gunk buried in the bottom of the grooves. I found myself obsessing over surface noise, groove wear, and IGD when I used a VM95ML, Ortofon OM30, and Shure V15V-MR, but I am far more laid back and accepting of the flaws that may be on the record using the Denon cartridges.

Use a RCM and forget about the deep dirt.
I prefer zero distortion/IGD and inner detail from microline / shibata stylus

 

[Zapper]

I am much more sceptical about the requirement that a preeamp should not clip at all. If no amp clips very strong transients might eventually kill the speakers.

It's not difficult to design a phono preamp which clips gracefully (zero recovery time) at a level not much higher than the loudest possible input signal. It prevents disaster in the following chain and transients should sound less intrusive.

Those are my thoughts too. If the preamp doesn't clip, the power amp might or the speaker might. Either would likely sound worse than preamp clipping.

I suspect (but don't know) that much of this advice is folklore based on early IC op-amps from the 1970's or simple discrete pre-amp designs, and doesn't necessarily apply today. It would be interesting to test, but unfortunately I can't devote the time to do it now.

 

[AaronJ]

Use a RCM and forget about the deep dirt.
I prefer zero distortion/IGD and inner detail from microline / shibata stylus

I’ve found that the DL 103 tracks as well as any of the exotic styli. Speaks to the spectacular quality of the cart. Everyone’s mileage will vary but I get zero IGD with either Denon. At the mechanical level I found a better tonearm helped with IGD more than anything. But usually incurable IGD is inherent in the poor mastering/pressing and can’t be fixed.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Or try this:

Parks Audio

Waxwing - the new standard for phono preamp performance - from Parks Audio.

parksaudiollc.com

 

[Zapper]

Here is the phono preamp from the Onkyo TX-NR686.

It looks like a typical competent design.

• The input capacitance is 220pF, which too high for @Abby Normal 's OP's Sumiko Rainier cartridge, which ask for 100-200pF (the cable and tonearm capacitances have to be added to the preamp capacitance to get the total load capacitance on the cartridge). The AT-VM95x cartridges also want 100-200pF.
• The op-amp is the NJM4580CG from Nisshinbo Micro Devices, which is not a device I'm familiar with. It claims to be particularly suited for audio preamps.
• The resistors are standard 5% values and the capacitors are 10% values.
• The RIAA EQ network capacitors are UMXR TYPE PLASTIC FILM CAPACITOR.
• The output is DC coupled via a 50V 10u UTSP-type electrolytic cap.
• The op-amp has +/-15V supplies and employs a negative feedback type EQ circuit, so it should have good overload headroom that won't degrade at higher frequencies as do passive EQ circuits.

A phono preamp with adjustable capacitance or a fixed low capacitance (100pF) might be beneficial compared to the Onkyo's phono preamp. Excessive capacitance can lead to elevated high frequencies, making the cartridge sound bright.

 

[mike70]

I’ve found that the DL 103 tracks as well as any of the exotic styli. Speaks to the spectacular quality of the cart. Everyone’s mileage will vary but I get zero IGD with either Denon. At the mechanical level I found a better tonearm helped with IGD more than anything. But usually incurable IGD is inherent in the poor mastering/pressing and can’t be fixed.

Well, the shibata was created/designed to play high frequencies that the existent conical / elliptical can't (obviously the dl103 included).

So, if you don't try a blind listening session or a digitalized comparation, maybe your opinion is totally subjective and prone to unconscious bias.

 

[LTig]

After moving to a spherical stylus from an exotic one like a micro line I am never going back. I am not going to suggest that the OP would completely modify the setup to use a Denon DL103, but I even found myself getting better enjoyment out of an AT VM95C than the VM95ML. My second deck used a Denon DL110 and I absolutely love it. Spherical and conical styli are quieter because they don’t hit as much of the deep gunk buried in the bottom of the grooves. I found myself obsessing over surface noise, groove wear, and IGD when I used a VM95ML, Ortofon OM30, and Shure V15V-MR, but I am far more laid back and accepting of the flaws that may be on the record using the Denon cartridges.

This is interesting as my experience is exactly the opposite. Going from an elliptical stylus (Linn K9 and Klyde ) to a VdH MC One special and now an AT PTG33/II did the same to me: much reduced groove noise, ticks and pops, much less distortion with worn out LPs

 

[EERecordist]

I would invest first in a wet bath ultrasonic record cleaner. You could have a side gig washing neighbor's records and replacing their sleeves.

 

[Zapper]

I get zero IGD with either Denon

No one has zero IGD. Not with any cartridge, tonearm, or turntable.

Conical styli don't ever track high frequencies very well, but they are less sensitive to inner groove tracking angle errors.

I find my perception of IGD is sensitive to source material. I particularly notice it in loud sections with massed strings in symphonic recordings. Not so much with pop and rock.

I haven't tried a conical stylus in a long time, but I could not solve IGD with an eliptical stylus on several turntables even with Stevenson alignment, which optimizes tracking angle at the inner groove, and adjusting anti-skate for neutrality at the inner groove.

 

[Robin L]

No one has zero IGD. Not with any cartridge, tonearm, or turntable.

Conical styli don't ever track high frequencies very well, but they are less sensitive to inner groove tracking angle errors.

I find my perception of IGD is sensitive to source material. I particularly notice it in loud sections with massed strings in symphonic recordings. Not so much with pop and rock.

I haven't tried a conical stylus in a long time, but I could not solve IGD with an eliptical stylus on several turntables even with Stevenson alignment, which optimizes tracking angle at the inner groove, and adjusting anti-skate for neutrality at the inner groove.

I've noticed some audiophile pressings either are cut at a lower level (allowing for the deadwax area to be bigger) or are spread across two discs, frequently at 45 rpm. Usually at a higher price, of course. Yet another argument for CDs. Even when I had a Linn LP 12 with a microline stylus, there was audible IGD. Moreso with used LPs.

 

[Zapper]

I've noticed some audiophile pressings either are cut at a lower level (allowing for the deadwax area to be bigger) or are spread across two discs,

And the worst offenders for IGD are the budget box sets like the old DG Beethoven Edition 9 Symphonien that I've got on right now.

 

[Robin L]

And the worst offenders for IGD are the budget box sets like the old DG Beethoven Edition 9 Symphonien that I've got on right now.

You mean the Time-Life edition of the Herbert von Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic cycle? Pressed in the USA? Those are uniformly awful. The German pressings are better. The was a German complete Beethoven edition, much better than the Time Life pressings. Of course, those recordings (I assume you are referring to the early 1960s recordings) are better represented on CD. Ebay's got a number of copies of different editions (including Blu Ray), the least expensive complete edition is around $12.99 + shipping. Believe it or not, the original "Tulip" pressings are Bonafide audiophile stuff. Because so many are in circulation, they never became collector's items. However, I see the boxed sets going for real money. Still, a good set.

A really good recent edition of the Symphonies is from Osmo Vanska on Bis SACDs, with the Minnesota Orchestra. Tight playing, fast tempi, excellent recorded sound.

 

[DSJR]

I’ve found that the DL 103 tracks as well as any of the exotic styli. Speaks to the spectacular quality of the cart. Everyone’s mileage will vary but I get zero IGD with either Denon. At the mechanical level I found a better tonearm helped with IGD more than anything. But usually incurable IGD is inherent in the poor mastering/pressing and can’t be fixed.

I take it you don't use digital or other neutral sources then?

The DL103 is a punchy sounding thing, but it's a bit 'rounded' in tone and loses 3dB or more at side end and to me that was audible. Even an elliptical isn't so wonderful compared to a well aligned ML or Shibata style tip and if you use 'digital' as well then this should be clear as day as far as fidelity to the source is concerned - well, it was to me but I had some limited acess to said source material.

 

[Abby Normal]

FTFY

 

[Abby Normal]

Here is the phono preamp from the Onkyo TX-NR686.
View attachment 355419

It looks like a typical competent design.

• The input capacitance is 220pF, which too high for @Abby Normal 's OP's Sumiko Rainier cartridge, which ask for 100-200pF (the cable and tonearm capacitances have to be added to the preamp capacitance to get the total load capacitance on the cartridge). The AT-VM95x cartridges also want 100-200pF.
• The op-amp is the NJM4580CG from Nisshinbo Micro Devices, which is not a device I'm familiar with. It claims to be particularly suited for audio preamps.
• The resistors are standard 5% values and the capacitors are 10% values.
• The RIAA EQ network capacitors are UMXR TYPE PLASTIC FILM CAPACITOR.
• The output is DC coupled via a 50V 10u UTSP-type electrolytic cap.
• The op-amp has +/-15V supplies and employs a negative feedback type EQ circuit, so it should have good overload headroom that won't degrade at higher frequencies as do passive EQ circuits.

A phono preamp with adjustable capacitance or a fixed low capacitance (100pF) might be beneficial compared to the Onkyo's phono preamp. Excessive capacitance can lead to elevated high frequencies, making the cartridge sound bright.

This is gold. Thank you for finding it @Zapper

One question I have not found consensus on is whether the phono stage capacitance is included in the equation. If so, then the 220pF phono plus the 135pF cable and another 25pF for the arm/head wiring puts me way outside of the happy zone.

I also confess that I don’t know much about the other values you listed. Would you be able to share your opinion on whether they’re good enough for casual listening, or whether I am strangling the records?