Help me decide: external phono stage or stylus?

[Zapper]

The main difference is during pops/clicks due the vinyl surface.

I agree that large amplitude pops and clicks will sound different on a preamp that clips. But large amplitude pops and clicks are not common on clean records.

 

[Watire]

A 40€ quality preamp can be as enjoyable as a reference 350€ preamp, and almost identical while ABXing. You can test an external preamp configuration even while upgrading the stylus. You don't need to break the bank to further your reflexion.
I never heard of the pops and clicks situation from the preamp angle. How do we test and compare this ?

 

[Zapper]

I never heard of the pops and clicks situation from the preamp angle. How do we test and compare this ?

It's an often made claim on this site. Amir's standard for good phono preamp headroom is not clipping with a 100mV input at any audible frequency (100mV = 26dB above the 5mV reference level). The hypothesis is that an amp that clips under a large fast transient will sound worse than one that doesn't. I've seen no evidence presented to support this hypothesis however.

Further hypotheses claim that a preamp that clips will not recover quickly or will be unstable.

To test it one could make digital recordings of the same section of a noisy record with low and high headroom preamps, level match, then blind AB test.

Personally I am sceptical that a very large amplitude transient would always sound better than the same transient clipped to a lower level. And claims for slow recovery and instability may apply to some incompetent designs but should not be true of phono preamps in general.

 

[Watire]

So if clipping the amplifier is the issue, and the intensity of the signal is the culprit, can we say that a louder cartridge will always be more prone to it in a fixed setup ?

 

[Zapper]

So if clipping the amplifier is the issue, and the intensity of the signal is the culprit, can we say that a louder cartridge will always be more prone to it in a fixed setup ?

Yes

 

[Chrispy]

I agree that large amplitude pops and clicks will sound different on a preamp that clips. But large amplitude pops and clicks are not common on clean records.

Strange medium where you need to pick particular examples to be "clean" What sold me on digital in the first place the absence of those annoying noises.

 

[Zapper]

Strange medium where you need to pick particular examples to be "clean" What sold me on digital in the first place the absence of those annoying noises.

Oh sure. I bought my 1st CD player in 1985 (2nd gen Sony CDP-102) and haven't bought an LP since (though I've been gifted a few recently). But I still have a collection of 500 or so LPs I wanted to listen to again.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Hi all,

I am officially stuck in analysis paralysis over trying to determine what to do first: add an external phono preamp or upgrade my cartridge…or whether I should even do anything.

Here is my current setup:

• Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo w/Sumiko Rainier MM
• Onkyo TX-NR686 (using onboard phono stage)
• Definitive Technology BP-10s

I recognize that I likely need a better stylus and that I also will benefit from a separate phono preamp. After much perusing if all the forums, I have my choices narrowed down to the following, but in what order?

1. Sumiko replacement stylus upgrade (likely Moonstone or Wellfleet)
2. Cambridge Audio Alva Duo preamp or Schiit Mani 2

I am 80/20 HT vs music. Which one will provide the most noticeable improvement to the dynamics, stage depth/width, and overall encompassing accuracy of the record, and therefore make the best first step?

I just want to feel confident that I am hearing everything that I am supposed to hear, the way it was originally intended.

Thanks!

On paper the tonearm on your table is not especially well matched to the Ranier cartridge. The effective mass is only 6 grams and the compliance of the cartridge is in the “medium“ range. That arm will likely work better with a high compliance cartridge. You could add a headshell weight and make a better match - this will increase the effective mass and require adjustment of the main counter weight to keep the tracking force correct. The VM95 cartridge is a bargain with the shibata or microline stylus, might be less money than a new needle, however the low mass arm has the same issue with the VM95. Insufficient bass response or tracking issues would be the likely symptoms of the mismatch.
Good luck with however you wish to proceed.

 

[Chrispy]

Oh sure. I bought my 1st CD player in 1985 (2nd gen Sony CDP-102) and haven't bought an LP since (though I've been gifted a few recently). But I still have a collection of 500 or so LPs I wanted to listen to again.

Yeah pretty much my story, altho bought vinyl into the early 90s. I have somewhere near 900 LPs and a bunch of 45s too. Still have my SL1200mk2 since 85.

 

[Zapper]

Yeah pretty much my story, altho bought vinyl into the early 90s. I have somewhere near 900 LPs and a bunch of 45s too. Still have my SL1200mk2 since 85.

I have my Dual CS505 but it doesn't work any more. Needs belts and a clean and lube job. I should buy a Technics too and be set for life for playing records.

 

[Abby Normal]

Is the 20% for music all vinyl? I'd just use what you've got unless there's something obviously wrong. I've used a wide variety of cartridge brands over the years and didn't find significant differences generally plus it's very hard to compare unless you have identical setups aside from cartridge to compare directly. I've mostly used phono stages internal to the receiver/pre-amp but not found a significant difference that way either, did get an external later and found it perhaps had an advantage as it had a gain adjustment. YMMV.

It has been lately, owing to my recent interest, but I play a lot of digital as well. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Abby Normal]

Just because of OPs moniker, couldn't resist

You got the reference!

 

[Abby Normal]

I'm not a cartridge expert but I wouldn't buy either the Moonstone or the Wellfleet - both are expensive but are only eliptical styli. Neither will track as well as a microline stylus.

The biggest single improvement I've had in vinyl playback was the inexpensive AT-VM95ML cartridge with microline stylus. It eliminated tracking issues and inner groove distortions that had always bothered me from back in the days when I used Shure V15 type 4 and type 5. I tried the AT-VM95E eliptical cartridge and all the familiar distortions on loud finales at the end of the LP were there. Switched to the microline stylus and they were gone. Even though I'm using a cheap AT turntable, I'm getting much better sounds from my LPs than ever before.

I'm usually in the camp of "it makes no difference". I think changing your phono preamp will likely make no audible difference. But a microline stylus really does make a difference and it's not subtle.

Thanks. To confess, I have never changed a cartridge so I am unfamiliar with having to do a full azimuth and vta alignment, which is why I have only been considering the simpler stylus replacement. I’m sure there are plenty of you tube videos…I was thinking I was keeping it simple?

 

[Abby Normal]

But how often is a phono preamp driven into clipping? I don't think very often, even for preamps with modest headroom, at least for clean, well maintained records.

A badly designed preamp can have poor RIAA EQ accuracy, but I would expect the Obkyo to have a basic but competently design preamp. It's a single op-amp circuit with a few R's and C's. Could be wrong about that - sometimes major vendors disappoint.

This is what I don’t know and am unable to find any specs on the Onkyo phono stage. I’ve emailed them but haven’t heard back yet.

 

[Abby Normal]

On paper the tonearm on your table is not especially well matched to the Ranier cartridge. The effective mass is only 6 grams and the compliance of the cartridge is in the “medium“ range. That arm will likely work better with a high compliance cartridge. You could add a headshell weight and make a better match - this will increase the effective mass and require adjustment of the main counter weight to keep the tracking force correct. The VM95 cartridge is a bargain with the shibata or microline stylus, might be less money than a new needle, however the low mass arm has the same issue with the VM95. Insufficient bass response or tracking issues would be the likely symptoms of the mismatch.
Good luck with however you wish to proceed.

Thanks. You seem to recommend the VM95 and then say it would have similar issues as the Rainier. To help me understand, exactly what should I be looking at, and looking for, to match the tone arm and the cartridge?

 

[DSJR]

Not much a LP guy anymore but if I remember the 2M Red and Blue can swap stylus' and Bronze and Black can. Bronze can not go on a Red, but could be wrong.

I know the body plastics are different from red-blue to bronze-black but I honestly thought the styli were interchangeable [edit, see below] - I sincerely apologise if they can't be interchanged.

I still believe the Ranier is a slight stylus and mounting update on a fifty or so year old body and with the mid kHz response dip still there giving a 'beefy' kind of tone rather than a dull one if my expensive experience of the Pearl and much older relatives from A&R (MgE77), Grace (F9E), Supex (SM100E), Rega (R100) and so many others are concerned.

It could be argued however, that the 2M Ortofons are merely mount and styling updates on the OM series, the bodies inside the plastic mouldings look to be similar all with slit pole pins as per the OM Supers of old, although the Bronze and Black claim silver plated coil wires (oh Gawd, why, unless it helps the price differential?)

Got to say I'm a huge fan of the 2M Bronze (the standard article is fine in a Rega Planar deck with RB arm, but for VTA freaks, they now do a slimmer version it appears for these turntables), but after the Sumiko, the AT VM740 may well be a nocer sounding choice (look up the German Lowbeats tests and measurements)

 

[Bob from Florida]

Thanks. You seem to recommend the VM95 and then say it would have similar issues as the Rainier. To help me understand, exactly what should I be looking at, and looking for, to match the tone arm and the cartridge?

"Issues" is a relative term. You can run cartridge-arm resonance calculations and predict cartridge-arm matching problems. In the real world you may not notice these problems - track-ability for example - with most records. I recently went from a low mass arm to a higher variable mass arm with noticeable improvements in bass - same cartridge. A test record with resonance tracks can help you identify matching issues. The information needed is readily available on setup for turntables. Google is your friend in the case. Start by reading the Korf blog. Analog planet has a number of articles devoted to setup theory - Fremer can be very opinionated but he shares valid setup advice. You need a few tools, a good eye, and steady hands to change and align cartridges. You don't need "perfect" alignment but Shibata and Microline need to be better aligned due to stylus shape. Do some serious reading before deciding. BTY, do not rely on factory setup! I have never found one that didn't need tweaking.

 

[DSJR]

Thanks. You seem to recommend the VM95 and then say it would have similar issues as the Rainier. To help me understand, exactly what should I be looking at, and looking for, to match the tone arm and the cartridge?

The VM95 range is a great low cost choice, but I'd not suggest it for an 'upgrade' over the Rainier really. The body internals are still based on low cost 95E and I suspect even the cheaper still AT91 era models and fitting an SH stylus isn't going to get the very best out of the diamond profile (variable separation between channels is a give-away here I find). The 540 upwards gives a better internal design, posher coil wires and the 740 a metal body which *shouldn't* excite an often midrange resonant 'lively' Pro-Ject tonearm as much (this arm looks slightly different to the 600Hz ringy 9C model though)

The *current* SH profile does seem a little more 'delicate' tonally from an ML type, which subjectively 'sparkles' more. Both can offer greater clarity over an elliptical stylus though but their success depends on other factors in the pickup design (why some of the fancy-foo Jico SAS replacements seem to totally screw up the once impressive performance of some Shure models for example as said Shures were a seemingly a huge set of compromises juggled together)

 

[antcollinet]

Almost any time you read "veil lifted" it's nonsense.

FTFY

 

[antcollinet]

I'm not a cartridge expert but I wouldn't buy either the Moonstone or the Wellfleet - both are expensive but are only eliptical styli. Neither will track as well as a microline stylus.

The biggest single improvement I've had in vinyl playback was the inexpensive AT-VM95ML cartridge with microline stylus. It eliminated tracking issues and inner groove distortions that had always bothered me from back in the days when I used Shure V15 type 4 and type 5. I tried the AT-VM95E eliptical cartridge and all the familiar distortions on loud finales at the end of the LP were there. Switched to the microline stylus and they were gone. Even though I'm using a cheap AT turntable, I'm getting much better sounds from my LPs than ever before.

I'm usually in the camp of "it makes no difference". I think changing your phono preamp will likely make no audible difference. But a microline stylus really does make a difference and it's not subtle.

I also have that stylus. Sound is very good, though I've not been able to compare with lesser types.