Help me decide: 7.1 today with future headroom, go with the Denon AVR-X4700H or X8500H

[amper42]

I bought my Denon 4700 from Listenup for $1529 including shipping in late 2020. Personally, I don't think $1500 is a great price for a used 4700. Here are the questions I would ask if I were in your shoes.
1. What was the sales date on the receipt?
2. Was the unit purchased new or refurbished?
3. What is the condition of the unit? Scratches, dents, everything working, everything included (Remote, Audyssey Mic, power cord, Mic stand)?
4. How often was it used?
5. Any issues you have experienced?
6. Do you have the original box and packing?
7. Are you willing to double box the receiver for shipping?

I would be hesitant to buy a used Denon without trying it first and I wouldn't pay more than $1350 - you may be more motivated? New would be my choice unless I thought I was getting a good deal and it was in great shape.

 

[TheReef510]

I bought my Denon 4700 from Listenup for $1529 including shipping in late 2020. Personally, I don't think $1500 is a great price for a used 4700. Here are the questions I would ask if I were in your shoes.

1. What was the sales date on the receipt?
2. Was the unit purchased new or refurbished?
3. What is the condition of the unit? Scratches, dents, everything working, everything included (Remote, Audyssey Mic, power cord, Mic stand)?
4. How often was it used?
5. Any issues you have experienced?
6. Do you have the original box and packing?
7. Are you willing to double box the receiver for shipping?

I would be hesitant to buy a used Denon without trying it first and I wouldn't pay more than $1350 - you may be more motivated? New would be my choice unless I thought I was getting a good deal and it was in great shape.

Wow, its crazy how much prices have gone up in a couple of years! Most retailers are wanting at least 400 more than that for new. But you're right, the seller didnt specify any of those points, just listed it as 'like new, open box' and was willing to give me the listenup order number... I also understand their skepticism to just hand off their receipt to an unknown person on the internet with their personal details. On the other hand, I am not in that much of a rush to get it, and this will be the 'brains' of my setup.. I'm getting new everything else, I should just swallow the recent price changes. I want a warranty. I will continue to search for an authorized dealer who's offering a fair price where at least I can get an OEM warranty if its open boxed.

 

[Putter]

I bought my Denon 4500 from Accessories for less. I though it would be a good way to save money. However, the amp section on the 4500 failed within 120 days of purchase. I can't recommend Denon refurb. The Denon refurb process is more about cleaning the outside rather than checking every feature. It's a gamble. AND the boxes used for Refurb shipping are less sturdy than the original factory box. That makes it easy for the unit to be damaged in shipping. Electronics can be damages without external dents so you may not notice you don't have a fully working unit until you finally add those height speakers for a 7.2.4 and the height speakers are intermittently crackling.

It took Denon 3 months to replace my receiver. I had to buy a 4700 in the meantime as I wasn't willing to wait for months without Home Theatre. That refurb ended up being my worst audio deal ever. The 1st time Denon Warranty shipped it back to me it was worse off than when I sent it in. Scratches everywhere and the front dented. I could not believe a quality repair person would do this kind of work. Denon worked on it again and decided it was not fixable and sent a replacement after I kept calling and calling plus emailing for status. My experience with Denon Warranty was less than glowing. I would never buy a Denon from Accessories for less again. Your experience may be better - but not worth the risk to me. Buying new is not much more and you are not getting something that was a return perhaps in need of repair.

It was a few years ago, but I had good experiences with 2 AV receiver purchases, Marantz SR 5010 and a Denon AVR-X3300W. They may have gone down hill. Certainly their prices have gone way up. I recall paying some where around $500 or so. Now modern equivalents are well over $1000.

 

[Head_Unit]

I am very excited about getting the monolith though.

Wait, which one? FYI we changed from a Denon AVR-X3600H to an Anthem AVM70 + ATI525NC beast. System is a tough-impedance Focal 936/CC900/SR900 + SVS SB-2000 Pro. Um, +$5800 later it sounds pretty similar. A bit difference but probably ARC vs. Audyssey. Should just kept the -3600. The ATI hybrid of Class D output with beefy linear supply is cool though...and runs really cool.
- AVRs are SO packed, be merciful, get an http://acinfinity.com/receiver-amp-cooling-fans/
- Klipsch like others published bullsh!t sensitivity, but are truly more sensitive than most. Just an AVR can drive them pretty dang loud.
- And if that's not enough, then to make much audible difference your external amp should at least double the 4 ohm power. (Even if the speakers are 8; speakers aren't resistors and few are truly "8 ohms" any more). That's expensive $$$...if you do buy external amps be sure they are returnable at a reasonable fee if they don't sound better.
- @Pogre is correct-to put it more strongly, speaker power specs are pretty useless and I say that as a loudspeaker engineer. And amp specs are tested just into resistors, also a very limited view. You do NOT need to "match" the power. More is better so long as you TURN IT THE HELL DOWN if things distort.

 

[TheReef510]

Wait, which one? - @Pogre is correct-to put it more strongly, speaker power specs are pretty useless and I say that as a loudspeaker engineer. And amp specs are tested just into resistors, also a very limited view. You do NOT need to "match" the power. More is better so long as you TURN IT THE HELL DOWN if things distort.

So I have a pair of Klipsch RF-7s and RC-7 in my theater room that I've had for almost two decades. I initially powered my entire 7.1 setup, which still exists today, with the amplifier section from the Denon 3803. At some point, my local A/V dealer where I got those speakers and equipment from exclaimed that my system would sound so much more robust if I were to get separate power amps, even if it was just for the front stage. So I got 2 rotel stereo power amps (200 wrms x 2) for the front stage, used the 3803 to power the rears, and got a Marantz 8801, along with a SVS sub. Somwhere along the line, the SVS sub's amps died and I was too busy to investigate how to replace them. At that point, I changed up the settings and sent all the bass to the front stage.

Let me say, I was and continue to be floored by the sonic performance that comes from just these speakers being run in Large mode from a pair of proper power amps. Do they extend down as far as the SVS does? Of course not. But is the bass focused and thunderous over 30hz? absolutely, to the point that I'm debating if its even worth it to replace the amp on the sub. The RF-7s are also very highly sensitive and the calculations would suggest otherwise that the speakers wouldn't sound any better with big power but... they do. And the room I have them in isnt all that big to begin with (20 x 18).

That's what convinced me to have a solid amp section regardless of whatever rated power and sensitivity specs are for the speakers. I want to get a monolith 200 x 7 amp. Based on what I've read, that thing is a tank, and will only serve as an investment going forward. Just need to figure out how to move that thing around my home whenever it gets here lol

 

[amper42]

So I have a pair of Klipsch RF-7s and RC-7 in my theater room that I've had for almost two decades. I initially powered my entire 7.1 setup, which still exists today, with the amplifier section from the Denon 3803. At some point, my local A/V dealer where I got those speakers and equipment from exclaimed that my system would sound so much more robust if I were to get separate power amps, even if it was just for the front stage. So I got 2 rotel stereo power amps (200 wrms x 2) for the front stage, used the 3803 to power the rears, and got a Marantz 8801, along with a SVS sub. Somwhere along the line, the SVS sub's amps died and I was too busy to investigate how to replace them. At that point, I changed up the settings and sent all the bass to the front stage.

Let me say, I was and continue to be floored by the sonic performance that comes from just these speakers being run in Large mode from a pair of proper power amps. Do they extend down as far as the SVS does? Of course not. But is the bass focused and thunderous over 30hz? absolutely, to the point that I'm debating if its even worth it to replace the amp on the sub. The RF-7s are also very highly sensitive and the calculations would suggest otherwise that the speakers wouldn't sound any better with big power but... they do. And the room I have them in isnt all that big to begin with (20 x 18).

That's what convinced me to have a solid amp section regardless of whatever rated power and sensitivity specs are for the speakers. I want to get a monolith 200 x 7 amp. Based on what I've read, that thing is a tank, and will only serve as an investment going forward. Just need to figure out how to move that thing around my home whenever it gets here lol

When my Monolith 7x200 arrived I slowly slid it down the stairs into the basement. Next, I moved it in front of the cabinet it was going in with a hand cart. Then, I opened the box while it was still on the floor. Rolled the box on it's side and gently allowed the amp to slowly tilt out of the box onto the floor. Once out of the box and plastic off, I slowly moved it into the bottom of the cabinet without ever lifting more than a corner at a time. Luckily, the bottom cabinet shelf was only 2" off the floor. With the rear of the amp barely in the cabinet I installed all the banana plugs and RCA connectors from the Denon 4700. After all cables were connected I slowly lifted the front of the amp up and pushed it back into the cabinet. If I need to change cables I simply slide it forward, make changes and slide it back again.

If your Monolith 7X200 will be installed higher up I would recommend a VERY strong cabinet AND a second pair of hands. If you keep it close to the floor one person can handle it. At least this old man did. Don't expect to move that cabinet after the 7x200 is installed.

 

[TheReef510]

I was planning on getting the monoprice amp stand to place it on, so no, it will not be going into anything higher than a few inches off the ground, and I have a month before I move into my new place. perhaps its now time I start lifting weights to get stronger lol

 

[Head_Unit]

monolith 200 x 7 amp...is a tank...need to figure out how to move that thing around my home

Let me help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheelbarrow

 

[Pogre]

Let me help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheelbarrow

I lol'd.

The damned thing is heavy. I cut a few dowel rods and stained them to match the stand I'm using to reinforce the shelf it sits on. Just kinda wedged them in there and shores everything up. Otherwise it'd buckle. Doesn't look too bad tho.

You can see them under that middle shelf across the front. There's support for the back too.

 

[Head_Unit]

There's support for the back too.

Maybe one under the center channel? How heavy is that thing? Which speakers are those, they look familiar...

 

[Pogre]

Maybe one under the center channel? How heavy is that thing? Which speakers are those, they look familiar...

Nah, the shelf rests on a metal frame so it's pretty sturdy. Just not 100+ lbs sturdy, lol. The center weighs a little over 40 lbs I believe.

Those are Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with RAAL ribbons and the matching Sierra Horizon center channel. I have Sierra 2s pulling surround duty.

 

[-Matt-]

Just wondering why the AVC-X6700H was apparently overlooked; despite the OP's initial requirement for front wides?

 

[TheReef510]

Just wondering why the AVC-X6700H was apparently overlooked; despite the OP's initial requirement for front wides?

because i realized its a pipe dream at best. my new place will be big enough for a nice 7.1 set up, not much more. i may as well get the best, most reasonable processor now and then upgrade in a few years. the jump in price from the 4700 to the 6700 is too great given that i'll probably never use those extra channels for front wides, or want something more robust in a few years, when I do build out a 16+ channel system.

I think i'll be happy with the 4700 with the monolith amp for now but thank you for bringing it up!

 

[-Matt-]

Fair enough, and thanks for explaining your reasoning. I'm sure you'll enjoy your 7.1 system; beyond this count you are well into diminishing returns. I think you are making a good decision going for the 4700.

On the idea that the X8500 might hypothetically have offered some sort of future proofing... I honestly don't think it would have. On the processing side, developments such as new hdmi standards, room correction software etc are sufficiently frequent that the best you can hope for is to be fairly current for a few years.

Not sure if I agree with the importance that you place on external power amplification, however, speakers, room sizes and volume preferences vary, which I guess might account for your experience on this. For me the biggest advantages that external amplification offer (if you are not massively increasing power output) are:

1) That it would (in future) allow the processing to be replaced separately from the amplification.

2) It could allow third party room correction hardware (such as minidsp) to be inserted between avr and amp.

3) The power amps could also be used for a "pure" stereo setup with just a dac and maybe a preamp or input switch. (I.e. bypassing the avr processing).

For me, I think I'm happy with just AVR internal amplification for now. (AVC-X6700H, 7.4.2, with front wides due to room layout; hence the interest).

Why not try your new speakers out with just the AVC-X4700H for a while, before deciding whether the Monolith 7x200 is needed?

 

[TheReef510]

Why not try your new speakers out with just the AVC-X4700H for a while, before deciding whether the Monolith 7x200 is needed?

Because I already have a set of the RP-600Ms paired with a Marantz-NR1710 slimline receiver and a Rythmik subwoofer in a 2.1 system in our sunroom. The sunroom is a long rectangle but I still sit around 12 feet away the speakers. The speakers definitely sound like they're struggling at high volumes, which is to be expected for a small amp section putting out about 50wrms. in any case, I figure the 70 or so watts i'll get running a full 7.1 system with this new receiver and the same kinds of speakers just wont be adequate in my new place which is almost twice as large an open space as the sunroom. therefore, I want to start off the bat with external amplification. Frankly I need to get one for the sunroom as well.

 

[peng]

I was planning on getting the monoprice amp stand to place it on, so no, it will not be going into anything higher than a few inches off the ground, and I have a month before I move into my new place. perhaps its now time I start lifting weights to get stronger lol

I think the Monolith amp will have all the power you need but am curious about if you have also considered a Hypex NC502MP amp for about the same price, or less if you go with something like VTV and Buckeyeamps.

 

[Pogre]

I think the Monolith amp will have all the power you need but am curious about if you have also considered a Hypex NC502MP amp for about the same price, or less if you go with something like VTV and Buckeyeamps.

Yeah, I love my Monolith, but VTV and Buckeye amps weren't around when I got it. I could easily have been talked into going with one of those Hypex based amps and think they're very worthy of consideration. I likely would have gotten one myself instead of the Mono.

 

[jbattman1016]

I love my 8500H, but if I would do it again, I likely would got with the smaller 6500 or 4500 instead and put the budget into speakers.

 

[TheReef510]

I think the Monolith amp will have all the power you need but am curious about if you have also considered a Hypex NC502MP amp for about the same price, or less if you go with something like VTV and Buckeyeamps.

I googled it and I see naked PCBoards with capacitors and stuff. do you have to like build these amp boxes or something? if I have to do extra work I'm not interested lol, i'd rather buy a big fat heavy box that's plug and play

 

[Pogre]

I googled it and I see naked PCBoards with capacitors and stuff. do you have to like build these amp boxes or something? if I have to do extra work I'm not interested lol, i'd rather buy a big fat heavy box that's plug and play

VTV Amplifier Line Up | VTV Amplifier

That should give you an idea. Looks like you can get a complete, in its own chassis plug n play version of just about any combination of channels and power.