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Help me decide: 7.1 today with future headroom, go with the Denon AVR-X4700H or X8500H

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TheReef510

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You could use a 3700 as a prepro, buy an amp for your front 3 speakers speakers and use the 3700's amps to power the rest.

If you want to get the 8500, then by all means get it. I just don't think your justifications are very logical. You can add 3 channels of amplification to take care of your front 3 and use the AVR to power the rest. Then you have an amp for future proofing that will work with any processor you get down the road.
I know what you're saying, but if you split it up to do LCRs powered by external amps, and the other surrounds by internal amps on the 3700, you still run into the issue of the 3700's LCR pre-outs not being able to provide a signal above 2V to the amps, because it sends that same signal across all of the onboard amps, regardless of which are actually under load (which in this case would only be the surround channels, not the LCRs), which then causes the amps to be under powered/clip. So you either defeat the entire amp section and use it just as a pre-amp, or use it as a receiver as intended.

The only AVR that avoids this specific situation and acts in the manner you're proposing is the 8500H, where you can turn off the pre-amp to select individual amplifiers in the chassis, while using a combination of outboard and onboard amplification.

So, I want 16 channels of processing, and all the audio formats. I've already decided I want that. If not today, I'll set up a system for that in the near future. So that takes out the 3700, leaving onlt the 4700 and the 8500H. The 4700's built in amps arent as powerful as I want for my speakers, so if I got the 4700, i'd get outboard amps for my speakers. The total cost of this would approach the cost of the 8500H, which by accounts here, has enough amplification to power my current set up as is, and then still have power left over for when I add more speakers. That's why I'm leaning towards the 8500H, but I'm still not 100% on whether I would rather just the 4700 and get some amps. I guess I'll reassess based on cost in 6 weeks or so
 

peng

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The reason I'm convincing myself to opt for the 8500 over the 4700 is that the 4700's amps are anemic compared to the ones in the 8500. If I got the 4700, I'd be wasting those amps. I'll never use them, and use the 4700 just in pre-pro mode. While on the 8500, many here are saying for the speakers I have, the internal amps on the 8500 are clean and will more than be enough to power my system in a small space as I have it. And later on, when I get a dedicated amp for the LCR, I can continue using the 8500's amps for any number of future applications. So I'm more looking at it as I'm saving money not having to buy a bunch more external amp headroom by getting the 8500 now, instead of the 4700 to be used solely as a pre-pro

You do have reasons to opt for the 8500, but power output is not one of them. The fact is, as mentioned, the difference between the output between the 4700 and 8500 is less than 1 dB, for both 8 and 4 ohm loads, two channel driven, and both can do about 70% of their rated output with 5 channel driven simultaneously, all at similar THD+N.

The 8500's preamp/dac is much cleaner, on paper, but it really isn't cleaner if used as an avr, or if used with the likes of emo amps. There are cleaner power amps than the Denon avrs but not too many. Not that those power amps are bad, but the amps in those avrs are actually quite good, as long as the are used within their limits.

If used with ext amps for some channels but not all, yes the 8500 is again, far superior but in many cases there wont likely be an audible difference.
 
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Pogre

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Does it all matter? Can you hear the difference?
Almost certainly not. For the difference in price, the 3700 or 4700 with a 3 channel amp just makes so much more sense to me.

However, the heart wants what the heart wants... If you're set on the 8500 it's not a bad AVR for sure. I just think all that money could go to better use elsewhere.
 

Pogre

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The 8500's preamp/dac is much cleaner, on paper, but it really isn't cleaner if used as an avr, or if used with the likes of emo amps.
Where would the amp disconnect feature come in with that? I know the 3700 has that feature and it's supposed to be even lower in distortion, right?
 

peng

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I know what you're saying, but if you split it up to do LCRs powered by external amps, and the other surrounds by internal amps on the 3700, you still run into the issue of the 3700's LCR pre-outs not being able to provide a signal above 2V to the amps, because it sends that same signal across all of the onboard amps, regardless of which are actually under load (which in this case would only be the surround channels, not the LCRs), which then causes the amps to be under powered/clip. So you either defeat the entire amp section and use it just as a pre-amp, or use it as a receiver as intended.

The only AVR that avoids this specific situation and acts in the manner you're proposing is the 8500H, where you can turn off the pre-amp to select individual amplifiers in the chassis, while using a combination of outboard and onboard amplification.

So, I want 16 channels of processing, and all the audio formats. I've already decided I want that. If not today, I'll set up a system for that in the near future. So that takes out the 3700, leaving onlt the 4700 and the 8500H. The 4700's built in amps arent as powerful as I want for my speakers, so if I got the 4700, i'd get outboard amps for my speakers. The total cost of this would approach the cost of the 8500H, which by accounts here, has enough amplification to power my current set up as is, and then still have power left over for when I add more speakers. That's why I'm leaning towards the 8500H, but I'm still not 100% on whether I would rather just the 4700 and get some amps. I guess I'll reassess based on cost in 6 weeks or so

To be clear, any of those from 3700 and up can output more than 2 V in non preamp mode. And the pre out will remain quite "clean", if one considers less than 0.018% THD+N is clean. Just for reference, 0.018% is aa clean as many prepros such as the AV7705, 7706

Still, I think the 8500 is a good option for you, just want you to have more relevant information.
 

peng

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Where would the amp disconnect feature come in with that? I know the 3700 has that feature and it's supposed to be even lower in distortion, right?

The 3700 can only disconnect the front left and right, unless preamp mode is engaged.
 

Pogre

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Just want you to have more relevant information
This is really where I'm coming from too. Who am I to tell someone not to buy a flagship AVR? Lol. My opinions are based on what I would do and stay budget conscious. For me it doesn't offer anything much more than the 3700, for my uses anyway. If you have the budget though, there aren't many knocks against the 8500. It is a beast!
 

Dougey_Jones

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The room is ~12 feet long, and 10 feet wide, with wood floors (I'll probably get a carpet or something) and drywall walls. It's not a dedicated room, but the family room that opens into the kitchen, so including the kitchen area, its bigger. I'm not planning on being in this house longer than 4 years at the max, so I wont be drilling holes into the walls or anything, all my speakers will be on stands. Having read your post, and thank you for being so detailed, I think I'll either get the 4700H or the 8500H and hook it up to my speakers and reassess. I'll also fork over the 20 dollars to get the audyssey room app on my phone.
12x10' room with 6x RP600M and you're worrying about running out of volume headroom? If you're serious, significant hearing loss has probably already begun..
 

HarmonicTHD

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The reason I'm convincing myself to opt for the 8500 over the 4700 is that the 4700's amps are anemic compared to the ones in the 8500. If I got the 4700, I'd be wasting those amps. I'll never use them, and use the 4700 just in pre-pro mode. While on the 8500, many here are saying for the speakers I have, the internal amps on the 8500 are clean and will more than be enough to power my system in a small space as I have it. And later on, when I get a dedicated amp for the LCR, I can continue using the 8500's amps for any number of future applications. So I'm more looking at it as I'm saving money not having to buy a bunch more external amp headroom by getting the 8500 now, instead of the 4700 to be used solely as a pre-pro
Do you know how loud 10W play with your speakers? Let alone 100W?
 

HarmonicTHD

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To be clear, any of those from 3700 and up can output more than 2 V in non preamp mode. And the pre out will remain quite "clean", if one considers less than 0.018% THD+N is clean. Just for reference, 0.018% is aa clean as many prepros such as the AV7705, 7706

Still, I think the 8500 is a good option for you, just want you to have more relevant information.
…. and if I am not mistaken, the OP wants to use the AVR with its built in power amps.… and here the X3700 even comes in some 4dB better in terms of SINAD (but the X8500 is about 6dB better in preamp only mode (not that any of this matters sound wise) but so the OP can have all the pros/cons.
 

Dougey_Jones

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…. and if I am not mistaken, the OP wants to use the AVR with its built in power amps.… and here the X3700 even comes in some 4dB better in terms of SINAD (but the X8500 is about 6dB better in preamp only mode (not that any of this matters sound wise) but so the OP can have all the pros/cons.
I think it’s great if OP has the means and wants to treat themself to a flagship AVR, but I agree that especially in the Denon lineup, the point of diminishing returns kicks in pretty early (x3700).
 
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TheReef510

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Okay, so I had to go get someone from the airport and am now just getting back. During the trip I thought long and hard about what I want and what is realistic.

What I want: a full 16 speaker atmos system in the near future.

What is realistic: I'm going to be very busy and exhausted and I do not and will not have room for 16 speakers in the home I'm planning on living in for the next 3-4 years.

I'm going with the AVR X 3700 with 7.2 speakers and I'll get a couple of emotiva amps.


Thank you thank you thank you all for talking sense into me! Very wonderful forum
 

Pogre

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If you do go with the 8500 and are using its onboard amps to power everything I would definitely recommend a fan or some type of cooling option because it will likely run pretty warm. Some cooling can go a long ways toward extending longevity.
 

Pogre

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Okay, so I had to go get someone from the airport and am now just getting back. During the trip I thought long and hard about what I want and what is realistic.

What I want: a full 16 speaker atmos system in the near future.

What is realistic: I'm going to be very busy and exhausted and I do not and will not have room for 16 speakers in the home I'm planning on living in for the next 3-4 years.

I'm going with the AVR X 3700 with 7.2 speakers and I'll get a couple of emotiva amps.


Thank you thank you thank you all for talking sense into me! Very wonderful forum
Well then nevermind my last post! We both posted at the same time and I didn't see yours before sending mine, lol. I think this is a good choice, and those amps you can use for a good long time as your system upgrades and evolves.
 
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TheReef510

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So happy to have been able to talk this out. I was going crazy in my own mind about what I want and reaching for things that are otherwise unrealistic in my current situation. 7.1 is absolutely fine in a small home and plenty of surround sound enough for me. and I'm sure the landscape will again change in 4 years where I'll want something else and then have to figure out what to do with the 52 lb beast that would otherwise be sitting in my A/V cabinet
 

Pogre

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So happy to have been able to talk this out. I was going crazy in my own mind about what I want and reaching for things that are otherwise unrealistic in my current situation. 7.1 is absolutely fine in a small home and plenty of surround sound enough for me. and I'm sure the landscape will again change in 4 years where I'll want something else and then have to figure out what to do with the 52 lb beast that would otherwise be sitting in my A/V cabinet
Hey, we're happy to help! Buying av gear can be daunting and confusing if you're not immersed in that universe like some of us are. Some factors matter more than others and it doesn't help that there are some popular misconceptions about what that is. The relation between power and volume is a big one. It isn't intuitive and most folks don't realize that you need to double your power to gain only 3 dB. The differences in power and distortion between models as they go up in price is usually really trivial in the big picture. Features and number of channels are bigger factors, imo.
 

amper42

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I went with the Denon 4700 in full pre-out mode using external Monolith 7x200 and a 5 channel Adcom for heights. It sounds cleaner to my ears than when using Denon internal amps. You don't get the same level of SINAD performance at higher SPL when using the fronts in pre-out mode. Plus, the Denon 4700 runs cooler in full pre-out mode whereas just fronts on pre-outs doesn't impact heat much. I have not heard the 4700 with the DAC replacement. My 4700 has the AKM DAC.

1.png
 

peng

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Okay, so I had to go get someone from the airport and am now just getting back. During the trip I thought long and hard about what I want and what is realistic.

What I want: a full 16 speaker atmos system in the near future.

What is realistic: I'm going to be very busy and exhausted and I do not and will not have room for 16 speakers in the home I'm planning on living in for the next 3-4 years.

I'm going with the AVR X 3700 with 7.2 speakers and I'll get a couple of emotiva amps.


Thank you thank you thank you all for talking sense into me! Very wonderful forum

Good to see that you have finally reached a more rational decision, that is not to pay for the features/benefits you won't be using for 4 years. In 4 years, I am sure the X8500H will not be your choice any more. In terms of audibility it will not likely make a difference assuming SINAD of the pre out may drop a few dB, but if you can find an older 3700 that has the AK4458 then it may help you feel better..


This graph indicates that the pre out does not clip until it passes 4 V. The much increased distortions in ASR's test was likely due to distortions fed back to the pre amp output when the internal power amp clipping that initial rapid increase would level off pass 2 V, you can see the trend line in Amir's graph posted in post#37.

image








I do generally prefer the 4700 but then it does cost $500 more.

As to the often mentioned lower pre out SINAD when the pre out goes above 1.5 V or so when not in preamp mode, just know that for your speakers and listening level you will almost certainly not have to worry about that at all, and even at 3 V, can you really hear the higher distortions, when it will still be below the threshold of audibility for most people? And if you look at many power amps measurements such the very popular Emotiva's distortions, the 3700's pre out won't be the bottleneck anyway, regardless of any mode. The important part though, is to use a couple of quiet external fans to help the unit run cooler, for longevity reason.
 
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TheReef510

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I do generally prefer the 4700 but then it does cost $500 more.

As to the often mentioned lower pre out SINAD when the pre out goes above 1.5 V or so when not in preamp mode, just know that for your speakers and listening level you will almost certainly not have to worry about that at all, and even at 3 V, can you really hear the higher distortions, when it will still be below the threshold of audibility for most people? And if you look at many power amps measurements such the very popular Emotiva's distortions, the 3700's pre out won't be the bottleneck anyway, regardless of any mode. The important part though, is to use a couple of quiet external fans to help the unit run cooler, for longevity reason.

What does the 4700 offer over the 3700 exactly? because of this? "Inherited from the Denon flagship AVR-X8500H, a sophisticated digital audio processing system that incorporates two dual SHARC+ core DSP chips is adopted on the AVR-X4700H allowing up to 11 channel audio processing and decoding capability at ease."

if so, I'll happily spend the extra 400 on this versus what I was previously considering. I also read the rave reviews of the monolith amps and was thinking about getting one of those, instead of the emotiva.
 

amper42

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The Denon 4700 offers a dual line display that's much nicer than the 3700 for my use. It also offers a front HDMI port that provides easy access for REW measurements. The other feature is Auro-3D which is not available on the 3700. It's a great feature if you have height speakers. With the 4700 you can customize the Auro-3D settings, offering quite a few different sound textures.

I don't care about the internal Denon amps as I use all external. The Monolith 7x200 is a beast. It weighs 92lbs which is the biggest downside. But, if you can get it in place it's a fantastic combination with the Denon 4700. It makes everything crystal clear and will take your speakers to a new level. Especially, with dynamic action movies. Rocket launches, car crashes and high SPL music. The sound is simply crisper with the Monolith 7X200.

When I shopped for the 4700, I was able to get a 10% discount from Listenup.com. You may be able to find deals too. The price of the 4700 has jumped from $1699 retail to $2099 which seems crazy stupid to me. It shouldn't be too hard to find a deal better than 2099 with free shipping. Personally, I think Denon has pushed these prices to the limit. I wouldn't be surprised if these price hikes bring new competitor options. Happy hunting!
 
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