Help me decide: 7.1 today with future headroom, go with the Denon AVR-X4700H or X8500H

[TheReef510]

Hello, the last time I put together an A/V setup was around 2014, so I'm very much out of my element. I want to start out with a 7.2 setup, and eventually add wides/ ceiling speakers. For now, I'm going with (3) pairs of the Klipsch RP-600M, and (1) Klipsch RP-600C and SVS subwoofers TBD. I just am stuck on what AVR/external amp solution would be appropriate.

I was initially thinking about pairing the X4700H and getting (1) Emotiva BasX A3 and (1) BasX A4, and use the X4700H exclusively in pre-amp mode.
But then I'm a bit skittish about paying for amps I'll never use (since you cant have both pre-amp mode and use some of the amps later on).

So then comes the X8500H, which I would still pair with the Emotiva BasX A3 for my front stage, but use the internal amps to power the surrounds/surround backs, and future height channels and still get decent output. This is the only AVR that lets up toggle individual amps on/off in pre-amp mode, and if I get this, I wouldn't be 'wasting' the amp section of either AVR.

I know there's a capacitor issue with the X4700H depending on the build date, but otherwise, its a solid AVR.
My main question is, is there a "performance hit" using just some of the amps in the X8500H and defeating the LCR amps so that I can power those with the emotiva? Will I get as clean a signal doing this versus just running the X4700H in pre-amp mode, and adding amplifiers as I expand my setup?
The difference between the two setups arent all that dissimilar in price point, but I want the cleanest signal I can get, without stepping up to a true Pre-amp Pro, and balanced power amps.

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

[tifune]

I want to start out with a 7.2 setup, and eventually add wides/

I was initially thinking about pairing the X4700H and getting (1) Emotiva BasX A3 and (1) BasX A4, and use the X4700H exclusively in pre-amp mode.
But then I'm a bit skittish about paying for amps I'll never use (since you cant have both pre-amp mode and use some of the amps later on).

Wides = 6700 or 8500, this is not optional. The 8500's amps are better than those Emotivas, and the 4700's are about equal.

If you want wides, it's easy: 8500. I like front wide myself, but they're the very edge of diminishing returns unless you have a very large room or unusual layout.

If you're not that attached to wides, the 4700 + $200 Audyssey MultiEQ-X license w paid measurement mic, and then reassess from there. If power seems lacking, you can get a nice 2-3ch. Remember, just because it's not in pre-amp mode doesn't mean you can't use the pre's. I ran my 4700 with 9x Genelecs and 1x Kef R3 as surround back for a few weeks, no hassles.

 

[Chrispy]

Why bother with amps that are so similar to the avr's amp section (like those Emotiva units) to begin with? Are they of such a sensitivity that the Denon will run into clipping for required pre-out levels? That pre-amp only mode is overthought by many. I'd probably go with the 3700/4700 generally and add power amps as needed, and power amps that are significantly more powerful.....

 

[Pogre]

3700 and add amps if necessary.

 

[TheReef510]

Thank you all for your responses.

the RP-600M are rated for 100WRMS, and the RP-600C is rated for 125WRMS; both at 8 ohms. However, Klipsch is known to lie about this stat for their higher end speakers, that routinely dip to 5 ohms or less during operation. That's why I thought the emotiva BasX rated at 140WRMS would provide more than enough headroom for the front stage... and the rest could be handled by the X8500H, or another outboard amp from Emotiva if I were to go with the X4700H.

I understand, and wholeheartedly appreciate your recommendations for getting the cheaper AVR of the two, and adding amps as necessary. The issue is that I'm starting residency in July. I won't have time to A/B the speakers against the native power amp, versus an outboard amp. I just want to get home after a long debilitating shift and relax and watch a movie, near reference levels if so, and just chill. Having a nice home theater has been a home away from home for me for the past 15 years, and I seek to replicate as much of that at my new place... at least for the next 3-4 years.

In that vein, what am I losing, in terms of sound quality/ overall reliability, if I were to splurge to get the X8500H and use it to power at least the: rear surrounds, rear back surrounds, and in the future: 4 ceiling heights, while turning off the amplifiers for the front stage (LCR)?

I care mostly about the LCR, and want to use an outboard amp for that, either the emotiva BasX rated at 125WRMS or the 200WRMS amps. But if it doesn't degrade sound quality, or affect the low voltage pre-amp outputs for the LCR, I'd like to use the onboard amp in the X8500 to power the remaining surround and in the future, the heights/ceiling speakers... provided they dont degrade the pre-out signal going to the LCRs, which will, always have a dedicated amp (I just have to figure out if it'll be emotiva or some other brand and what wattage).

In this regard, should I just bite the bullet and attempt to treat either then 4700 or the 8500 as only a pre-amp, or get the 4700, use that as a pre-amp in all purposes and buy separate amps as needed? I guess I'm trying to have both worlds by not wasting the included amps on the 8500H for surrounds, while using an outboard set of amps for the front stage, and hoping that the pre-amp low voltage output is enough so my outboard LCR amp doesn't clip at reference levels.


Thank you!

 

[TheReef510]

Are they of such a sensitivity that the Denon will run into clipping for required pre-out levels?

I don't know the answer to this question, that's why I thought I'd ask here. The "good" klipsch typically are very efficient speakers, but they are known to dip well below their 8 ohm rating. So for over decades, I've had their Reference line of speakers (RF-7, RC-7, RF-83s) that have all been very highly sensitive, but I've still opted to run them with dedicated amps, and they've played so so much better because of that.

I love the Klipsch sound. I always have. I want that for this new setup. I just dont have enough room for 5 floorstanders, so I thought I'd go with their best, highly rated bookshelf speakers and get a couple of good subwoofers to augment. But I don't want to shortchange myself on the amps or if the 8500H is good enough, then use those onboard amps for my initial 7.2 setup. I hope I'm making sense. I want to prioritize sound quality... I just want to know if I'm sacrificing anything by using *some* of the onboard X8500H's onboard amps for the surround, ceiling speakers, while turning off the LCR amps, and using the receiver's pre-outs for just that stage, without any signal loss/clipping/etc.

 

[JSmith]

Klipsch RP-600M

I love the Klipsch sound.

Klipsch RP-600M Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Klipsch RP-600M Speaker Review. I purchased them from Amazon a couple of weeks ago. The current cost on Amazon is US $629 including Prime shipping. I however found a refurbished one for $450 I think. It looks brand new in the box though...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[tifune]

Thank you all for your responses.

the RP-600M are rated for 100WRMS, and the RP-600C is rated for 125WRMS; both at 8 ohms. However, Klipsch is known to lie about this stat for their higher end speakers, that routinely dip to 5 ohms or less during operation. That's why I thought the emotiva BasX rated at 140WRMS would provide more than enough headroom for the front stage... and the rest could be handled by the X8500H, or another outboard amp from Emotiva if I were to go with the X4700H.

I understand, and wholeheartedly appreciate your recommendations for getting the cheaper AVR of the two, and adding amps as necessary. The issue is that I'm starting residency in July. I won't have time to A/B the speakers against the native power amp, versus an outboard amp. I just want to get home after a long debilitating shift and relax and watch a movie, near reference levels if so, and just chill. Having a nice home theater has been a home away from home for me for the past 15 years, and I seek to replicate as much of that at my new place... at least for the next 3-4 years.

In that vein, what am I losing, in terms of sound quality/ overall reliability, if I were to splurge to get the X8500H and use it to power at least the: rear surrounds, rear back surrounds, and in the future: 4 ceiling heights, while turning off the amplifiers for the front stage (LCR)?

I care mostly about the LCR, and want to use an outboard amp for that, either the emotiva BasX rated at 125WRMS or the 200WRMS amps. But if it doesn't degrade sound quality, or affect the low voltage pre-amp outputs for the LCR, I'd like to use the onboard amp in the X8500 to power the remaining surround and in the future, the heights/ceiling speakers... provided they dont degrade the pre-out signal going to the LCRs, which will, always have a dedicated amp (I just have to figure out if it'll be emotiva or some other brand and what wattage).

In this regard, should I just bite the bullet and attempt to treat either then 4700 or the 8500 as only a pre-amp, or get the 4700, use that as a pre-amp in all purposes and buy separate amps as needed? I guess I'm trying to have both worlds by not wasting the included amps on the 8500H for surrounds, while using an outboard set of amps for the front stage, and hoping that the pre-amp low voltage output is enough so my outboard LCR amp doesn't clip at reference levels.


Thank you!

I understand, and can relate, to all of this. The Genelec setup I mentioned in my previous post is not at all cost effective, but at this stage of life my career is going well and being a parent makes my time more expensive than $. I wanted Auro3D and coaxial performance with a mature multichannel room correction suite; Kef's were too big for my nearfield (<1m) setup, I take umbridge with MultiEQ-X's licensing, and good luck finding a HTP1 in stock (I know because I've been waiting for warranty repair since SEpt.). So, Genelec + Denon it is.

I'm powering all this with a 4700, but I also have a 8500 in my HT. On the 8500 I use a Musical Fidelity M6 PRX for my front L/R amp, and it probably does make a difference because my sitting distance is 12ft and my speakers (226Be) are 90dB rated with some tough spots impedance-wise. I use the onboard for the other 7 channels. But, we turn it up LOUD because we only sit in front of the speakers 50% of the time - otherwise we're meandering through the house and that monstrous dispersion sounds great everywhere. Even with that type of use, we've never turned the volume past 60. I might try bi-amping my center with the 8500, just because it's a few mouse clicks + running a wire. I haven't yet because of time constraints and user DonH56's thread outlining why it's probably pointless with AVRs especially, but most outboard amps in general.

I actually wouldn't recommend the M6, I just like the sound of Musical Fidelity products even though I know full well it's either sighted bias or the amp actually has a character. If true, 'has a character' is just a nice way of saying MF's amps actually aren't that great. It helps that I got an incredible deal, though.

With this setup, there was only 1 time I thought I heard my center struggling for power - it started to sound compressed, but it was only once so I could've been imagining it or it was the movie's mix. It's hard to imagine needing more than 100W on a 90dB speaker if you're always in front of the speakers, but you didn't say your listening distance and/or room characteristics. A wood floor + stone walls will help with volume, but probably not in a good way.

All that said, I still stick by my original recommendation of: unless you're absolutely tied to the front wide idea, start with 4700 + Audyssey paid upgrade w/ their new mic, and reassess. Odds are that'll sound better than any amp you buy, and if you run out of power you'll know it. It's not at all subtle during peaks in action movies or classical music. If you feel the need for an amp after all that, Buckeye Amps is the go-to for USA dwellers. I've spoken with him personally at length, not just as a customer (although I probably will be when he rolls out the high pwoer purifi modules). great guy and great products. Remember, the pre-amp thing isn't really relevant at all if your amp input sensitivity is <=1.4V. I used a 1.6V amp for a time, sounded great to me. nCore amps have become commodities, barely more $ than those emotivas, and will eat them alive. Purifi even better, although probably not audibly so if implemented correctly.

I'll let others espouse the virtues of room treatment; I have no expertise as I have yet to find a single panel that scores high enough on WAF to make it into this house...

 

[Pogre]

Thank you all for your responses.

the RP-600M are rated for 100WRMS, and the RP-600C is rated for 125WRMS; both at 8 ohms. However, Klipsch is known to lie about this stat for their higher end speakers, that routinely dip to 5 ohms or less during operation. That's why I thought the emotiva BasX rated at 140WRMS would provide more than enough headroom for the front stage... and the rest could be handled by the X8500H, or another outboard amp from Emotiva if I were to go with the X4700H.

I understand, and wholeheartedly appreciate your recommendations for getting the cheaper AVR of the two, and adding amps as necessary. The issue is that I'm starting residency in July. I won't have time to A/B the speakers against the native power amp, versus an outboard amp. I just want to get home after a long debilitating shift and relax and watch a movie, near reference levels if so, and just chill. Having a nice home theater has been a home away from home for me for the past 15 years, and I seek to replicate as much of that at my new place... at least for the next 3-4 years.

In that vein, what am I losing, in terms of sound quality/ overall reliability, if I were to splurge to get the X8500H and use it to power at least the: rear surrounds, rear back surrounds, and in the future: 4 ceiling heights, while turning off the amplifiers for the front stage (LCR)?

I care mostly about the LCR, and want to use an outboard amp for that, either the emotiva BasX rated at 125WRMS or the 200WRMS amps. But if it doesn't degrade sound quality, or affect the low voltage pre-amp outputs for the LCR, I'd like to use the onboard amp in the X8500 to power the remaining surround and in the future, the heights/ceiling speakers... provided they dont degrade the pre-out signal going to the LCRs, which will, always have a dedicated amp (I just have to figure out if it'll be emotiva or some other brand and what wattage).

In this regard, should I just bite the bullet and attempt to treat either then 4700 or the 8500 as only a pre-amp, or get the 4700, use that as a pre-amp in all purposes and buy separate amps as needed? I guess I'm trying to have both worlds by not wasting the included amps on the 8500H for surrounds, while using an outboard set of amps for the front stage, and hoping that the pre-amp low voltage output is enough so my outboard LCR amp doesn't clip at reference levels.


Thank you!

You don't need to be A/B testing amps or fuss over the power handling specs of your speakers. Rated power handling is pretty meaningless anyway. Sensitivity is more meaningful than power handling and Klipsch tend to have higher than average sensitivity. You're way overthinking this. Sufficient power for desired spl is sufficient power. You're almost certainly not going to hear any differences from one amp to another.

 

[TheReef510]

With this setup, there was only 1 time I thought I heard my center struggling for power - it started to sound compressed, but it was only once so I could've been imagining it or it was the movie's mix. It's hard to imagine needing more than 100W on a 90dB speaker if you're always in front of the speakers, but you didn't say your listening distance and/or room characteristics. A wood floor + stone walls will help with volume, but probably not in a good way.

I'll let others espouse the virtues of room treatment; I have no expertise as I have yet to find a single panel that scores high enough on WAF to make it into this house...

The room is ~12 feet long, and 10 feet wide, with wood floors (I'll probably get a carpet or something) and drywall walls. It's not a dedicated room, but the family room that opens into the kitchen, so including the kitchen area, its bigger. I'm not planning on being in this house longer than 4 years at the max, so I wont be drilling holes into the walls or anything, all my speakers will be on stands. Having read your post, and thank you for being so detailed, I think I'll either get the 4700H or the 8500H and hook it up to my speakers and reassess. I'll also fork over the 20 dollars to get the audyssey room app on my phone.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The room is ~12 feet long, and 10 feet wide, with wood floors (I'll probably get a carpet or something) and drywall walls. It's not a dedicated room, but the family room that opens into the kitchen, so including the kitchen area, its bigger. I'm not planning on being in this house longer than 4 years at the max, so I wont be drilling holes into the walls or anything, all my speakers will be on stands. Having read your post, and thank you for being so detailed, I think I'll either get the 4700H or the 8500H and hook it up to my speakers and reassess. I'll also fork over the 20 dollars to get the audyssey room app on my phone.

I think that is a good conclusion. Get the 8500H only if you need the extra features not because of sound - difference is not audible in common living room music / movie consummation.

 

[Pogre]

As far as power handling goes, it's usually more of a melting point than a suggestion. If you know your speakers' sensitivity you can use this SPL calculator to ballpark your power needs.

Peak SPL Calculator

That's fixed for 8 Ohm speakers and no speaker is perfectly 8 Ohm through the entire fr so it's not perfectly accurate and results can vary, but it can give you a good idea of the relation between power and volume.

 

[peng]

The room is ~12 feet long, and 10 feet wide, with wood floors (I'll probably get a carpet or something) and drywall walls. It's not a dedicated room, but the family room that opens into the kitchen, so including the kitchen area, its bigger. I'm not planning on being in this house longer than 4 years at the max, so I wont be drilling holes into the walls or anything, all my speakers will be on stands. Having read your post, and thank you for being so detailed, I think I'll either get the 4700H or the 8500H and hook it up to my speakers and reassess. I'll also fork over the 20 dollars to get the audyssey room app on my phone.

For only 4 years, the X4700H (or even the X3700H Pogre suggested) seems like a good option. If you want to feel good about having the best measured AVR and go with the X8500H then you probably want it to last 8 or more years. The question then would be obsolescence, assuming the unit could actually stay trouble free for that long.

Regardless, you may want to grab a couple of the Infinity USB fans, set them on low speed to minimize noise as that should help the unit to last longer. And by the way, you are right to not trust Klipsch's sensitivity specs, but if their specs say 96 dB/2.83V/m, you should be able to assume a minimum of 90 dB/2.83V. For a 12X10' room, I assume you will be sitting no more than 10' from the furthest speakers. Any D+M AVRs can drive them well enough without external amps.

 

[TheReef510]

For only 4 years, the X4700H (or even the X3700H Pogre suggested) seems like a good option. If you want to feel good about having the best measured AVR and go with the X8500H then you probably want it to last 8 or more years. The question then would be obsolescence, assuming the unit could actually stay trouble free for that long.

Regardless, you may want to grab a couple of the Infinity USB fans, set them on low speed to minimize noise as that should help the unit to last longer. And by the way, you are right to not trust Klipsch's sensitivity specs, but if their specs say 96 dB/2.83V/m, you should be able to assume a minimum of 90 dB/2.83V. For a 12X10' room, I assume you will be sitting no more than 10' from the furthest speakers. Any D+M AVRs can drive them well enough without external amps.

Obsolescence is what I'm guarding against I suppose. I dont need 8k lol. I dont forsee myself getting an 8k TV anytime soon given there's no content for it. I'm happy with 4K, and I currently have only 7 speakers, and this thing can process more than double that. I think for me the 8500H is the way to go, I think it'll keep me happy for a decade and then hopefully I can continue using it as an amp. I'm gonna keep holding out and hope the prices drop a bit more between now and when I have to move.

 

[Pogre]

Obsolescence is what I'm guarding against I suppose. I dont need 8k lol. I dont forsee myself getting an 8k TV anytime soon given there's no content for it. I'm happy with 4K, and I currently have only 7 speakers, and this thing can process more than double that. I think for me the 8500H is the way to go, I think it'll keep me happy for a decade and then hopefully I can continue using it as an amp. I'm gonna keep holding out and hope the prices drop a bit more between now and when I have to move.

What features or future proofing does the 8500 have, that you need, that the 3700 doesn't have?

 

[TheReef510]

What features or future proofing does the 8500 have, that you need, that the 3700 doesn't have?

auro 3D, DTS Pro, 16 channel processing, front wide capability. built like a tank lol

 

[tifune]

The room is ~12 feet long, and 10 feet wide, with wood floors (I'll probably get a carpet or something) and drywall walls. It's not a dedicated room, but the family room that opens into the kitchen, so including the kitchen area, its bigger. I'm not planning on being in this house longer than 4 years at the max, so I wont be drilling holes into the walls or anything, all my speakers will be on stands. Having read your post, and thank you for being so detailed, I think I'll either get the 4700H or the 8500H and hook it up to my speakers and reassess. I'll also fork over the 20 dollars to get the audyssey room app on my phone.

Just FYI, the $20 and $200 apps are quite different (as they should be). The $20 can actually get you pretty far *in conjunction with REW*, but as you say time is limited so if $200 isn't out of reach for you that'd be my advice combined with their new measurement mic . You just have to eb OK with that license permanently tied to that device. I'm personally not OK with that, but you seem to have an 8+ year time horizon in mind so I'd say that's acceptable

 

[Pogre]

auro 3D, DTS Pro, 16 channel processing, front wide capability. built like a tank lol

16 channel processing? I thought you had said 7.1?

I suppose if you are going to actually use actually use those couple extra features then the 8500 would be the way to go.I personally feel for the difference in cost that it is not worth it at all, but to each his own.

*You can spend the money saved on better amplification for your fronts, for instance, and you'll have that amplification for future use as well.

 

[TheReef510]

16 channel processing? I thought you had said 7.1?

I suppose if you are going to actually use actually use those couple extra features then the 8500 would be the way to go.I personally feel for the difference in cost that it is not worth it at all, but to each his own.

*You can spend the money saved on better amplification for your fronts, for instance, and you'll have that amplification for future use as well.

The reason I'm convincing myself to opt for the 8500 over the 4700 is that the 4700's amps are anemic compared to the ones in the 8500. If I got the 4700, I'd be wasting those amps. I'll never use them, and use the 4700 just in pre-pro mode. While on the 8500, many here are saying for the speakers I have, the internal amps on the 8500 are clean and will more than be enough to power my system in a small space as I have it. And later on, when I get a dedicated amp for the LCR, I can continue using the 8500's amps for any number of future applications. So I'm more looking at it as I'm saving money not having to buy a bunch more external amp headroom by getting the 8500 now, instead of the 4700 to be used solely as a pre-pro

 

[Pogre]

The reason I'm convincing myself to opt for the 8500 over the 4700 is that the 4700's amps are anemic compared to the ones in the 8500. If I got the 4700, I'd be wasting those amps. I'll never use them, and use the 4700 just in pre-pro mode. While on the 8500, many here are saying for the speakers I have, the internal amps on the 8500 are clean and will more than be enough to power my system in a small space as I have it. And later on, when I get a dedicated amp for the LCR, I can continue using the 8500's amps for any number of future applications. So I'm more looking at it as I'm saving money not having to buy a bunch more external amp headroom by getting the 8500 now, instead of the 4700 to be used solely as a pre-pro

You could use a 3700 as a prepro, buy an amp for your front 3 speakers speakers and use the 3700's amps to power the rest.

Did you play around with that SPL calculator I linked?? Did you note the difference in SPL between the amp sections of those different AVRs? The difference in power between them doesn't even amount to 1 dB of difference in volume.

If you want to get the 8500, then by all means get it. I just don't think your justifications are very logical. You can add 3 channels of amplification to take care of your front 3 and use the AVR to power the rest. Then you have an amp for future proofing that will work with any processor you get down the road.