Help me choose my first open back HP

[tonediary]

I've only used closed back or IEM's all my life.
I am mostly looking for good bass extension/dynamic for an open back , good soundstage , instrument separation. I don't like bright sound.
I am not going to be using it for extended periods of time at once so being a little uncomfortable is not an issue.

My limit is around $700

My candidates :

Hifiman Sundara

Hifiman Edition XS

Sennheiser 600

Sennheiser 660s2

Focal Hadenys

(feel free to advice anything other than above)

I'll be using it for %70 music (i listen to pretty much everything other than rap and metal) and %30 gaming.

I'll also be purchasing a dac/amp combo once i decide which HP to get.

 

[solderdude]

Good bass extension or emphasized bass ?
Comfort ? Big head ? Protruding ears ? clamping force ? pleather/leather/velours pads ? Driveable from a phone or certain amp ? Planning to EQ ? Aftermarket support (pads, headband, warranty, longevity), wearing glasses ? Hairs over the ears ?

good soundstage , instrument separation. I don't like bright sound.

Soundstage is something created in one's head and can differ from person to person. Don't expect too much on this aspect.
Good instrument separation is generally present in headphones that have an even response above 1kHz and do not not have elevated (mid)bass.
Bright and sharp are different things when you don't like bright sound look for headphones that have a lower response between 1kHz and 5kHz.
When you don't want sharpness you don't want elevated upper treble. Unfortunately most measurements do not show this accurately. Something to keep in mind when going of measurements (ignore everything above 8kHz).

Some alternatives:
Sennheiser HD560S, HD490 Pro
FiiO FT3
Aune AR5000
Beyerdynamic DT900 pro X
OLLO S5X
Fidelio X2HR (if you can still find them)
Roland RH-A30

Comfort and tonal preference is personal.
What might be comfortable to person A may not be so for person B.
What person A might find to sound great may be a poor sound to others.

 

[Roland68]

I've only used closed back or IEM's all my life.
I am mostly looking for good bass extension/dynamic for an open back , good soundstage , instrument separation. I don't like bright sound.
I am not going to be using it for extended periods of time at once so being a little uncomfortable is not an issue.

My limit is around $700

My candidates :

Hifiman Sundara

Hifiman Edition XS

Sennheiser 600

Sennheiser 660s2

Focal Hadenys

(feel free to advice anything other than above)

I'll be using it for %70 music (i listen to pretty much everything other than rap and metal) and %30 gaming.

I'll also be purchasing a dac/amp combo once i decide which HP to get.

An insider tip for this application is the TYGR 300 R from beyerdynamic.
Much better than the price range suggests.

The Fostex t60rp is also very good, ideal for people who are sensitive to unpleasant highs.

If you want to make the most of your budget with used HP, I can also recommend the AKG K812, which is very honest. It reproduces the highs that are there.

 

[staticV3]

Ah yes, very honest, with 7dB swings in the lower treble:

 

[eddantes]

@solderdude is the expert... But... I'd get the 400se, eq to my hearts content, and use the pile of saved money for other things.

 

[Roland68]

Ah yes, very honest, with 7dB swings in the lower treble:
View attachment 404453

I don't think much of the usual measurements, especially with the K812.
There are many people who have already measured the K812 and most of the measurements are very different. Apparently the differences come from the very special ear pads.
In general, many users have described these headphones as "bright", which contradicts many measurements.

As I have had several K812s from different production years and locations here, I couldn't find any major differences between them.

Even in fairly complex comparisons that I once made in a recording studio with several sound engineers and many high-quality headphones, with and without EQ, the K812 was one of the more neutral HPs for us.

But that is my experience (and that of a few other people) and it doesn't necessarily agree with others.

 

[rostek6]

My vote for HD600, because:
1) it's quite neutral and rather not-annoying, so suitable for most music. Sounds good with accoustic, sounds good with classical, sounds good with rock and metal. Most probably you can find headphones that you could sound not only "good" but "best" or "better" with specific generes, but we are not talking about "one pair for classics, one pair for metal etc." So, HD600 is rather safe and universal choice for having one pair of open-back;
2) some issue can be bass extension. So it will not be subwoofer-like. But maybe something similar to "monitor speakers". To my ears bass on these grows when you connected to balanced (most probably dual mono) amplifer.
3) Instrument separation is better and one can notice a lot of details in music without harsh highs in such case also (balanced, most probably dual mono) but be warned: it sounds sometimes a little bit "unnatural" it this case, because if you will listen to musican in real life sitting on left, you will hear him playing also through right ear. In HD600 and balanced/dual mono scenario you will hear him playing only in left chanel, unless recording was mastered another way (putting his sound intentionaly to both channels).
4) it's time-proven. For some reason it's - after years from premiere - even now very popular and good selling headphone.

So, maybe you will not fall in love with these, but most probably you will not hate it also. Buying more specifing ones (like AKG701) is game - you may love them (like me) listening to classics with it, but also find it unusable for a lot of popular or heavy music, when connected to "rather objective" amplifer of course.

 

[oceansize]

@solderdude is the expert... But... I'd get the 400se, eq to my hearts content, and use the pile of saved money for other things.

There's a lot to be said for this idea... I have the Edition XS, but bought a pair of the HE400se recently, just because they were so ridiculously cheap (<£70 on Amazon). I do prefer the Edition XS - but it's marginal and has more to do with comfort than sound quality and I suspect that as the HE400se gets physically broken in, I'd be just as happy with either once EQed. Check Amir's review and consider waiting to see if there are any Black Friday bargains to be had.

 

[tonediary]

Good bass extension or emphasized bass ?
Comfort ? Big head ? Protruding ears ? clamping force ? pleather/leather/velours pads ? Driveable from a phone or certain amp ? Planning to EQ ? Aftermarket support (pads, headband, warranty, longevity), wearing glasses ? Hairs over the ears ?


Soundstage is something created in one's head and can differ from person to person. Don't expect too much on this aspect.
Good instrument separation is generally present in headphones that have an even response above 1kHz and do not not have elevated (mid)bass.
Bright and sharp are different things when you don't like bright sound look for headphones that have a lower response between 1kHz and 5kHz.
When you don't want sharpness you don't want elevated upper treble. Unfortunately most measurements do not show this accurately. Something to keep in mind when going of measurements (ignore everything above 8kHz).

Some alternatives:
Sennheiser HD560S, HD490 Pro
FiiO FT3
Aune AR5000
Beyerdynamic DT900 pro X
OLLO S5X
Fidelio X2HR (if you can still find them)
Roland RH-A30

Comfort and tonal preference is personal.
What might be comfortable to person A may not be so for person B.
What person A might find to sound great may be a poor sound to others.

Thank you for your informative input.

Letting aside all the terms and science ; If you had to choose absolutely one headphone , which will make you happy listening to most kinds of music , what would it be from my list and your alternatives? I am also thinking of getting the Fioo FT1 alongside my open back HP purchase if i stay on the $300-$400 limit.

 

[tonediary]

There's a lot to be said for this idea... I have the Edition XS, but bought a pair of the HE400se recently, just because they were so ridiculously cheap (<£70 on Amazon). I do prefer the Edition XS - but it's marginal and has more to do with comfort than sound quality and I suspect that as the HE400se gets physically broken in, I'd be just as happy with either once EQed. Check Amir's review and consider waiting to see if there are any Black Friday bargains to be had.

Have you ever tried the Sundara? Wonder how it does compare to these two.

 

[tonediary]

My vote for HD600, because:
1) it's quite neutral and rather not-annoying, so suitable for most music. Sounds good with accoustic, sounds good with classical, sounds good with rock and metal. Most probably you can find headphones that you could sound not only "good" but "best" or "better" with specific generes, but we are not talking about "one pair for classics, one pair for metal etc." So, HD600 is rather safe and universal choice for having one pair of open-back;
2) some issue can be bass extension. So it will not be subwoofer-like. But maybe something similar to "monitor speakers". To my ears bass on these grows when you connected to balanced (most probably dual mono) amplifer.
3) Instrument separation is better and one can notice a lot of details in music without harsh highs in such case also (balanced, most probably dual mono) but be warned: it sounds sometimes a little bit "unnatural" it this case, because if you will listen to musican in real life sitting on left, you will hear him playing also through right ear. In HD600 and balanced/dual mono scenario you will hear him playing only in left chanel, unless recording was mastered another way (putting his sound intentionaly to both channels).
4) it's time-proven. For some reason it's - after years from premiere - even now very popular and good selling headphone.

So, maybe you will not fall in love with these, but most probably you will not hate it also. Buying more specifing ones (like AKG701) is game - you may love them (like me) listening to classics with it, but also find it unusable for a lot of popular or heavy music, when connected to "rather objective" amplifer of course.

I appreciate the detailed reply. Whenever i am ready to pull the trigger for the HD600 i'm stopped by the "claustrophobic soundstage" comments i see everywhere.
I think to myself ; "If i am getting an open back and losing the bass a closed back has i better get a holographic soundstage open back HP."
And that makes me towards to choose Sundara , Edition XS or Hadenys which supposedly all have better bass and soundstage.

 

[oceansize]

Have you ever tried the Sundara? Wonder how it does compare to these two.

I haven't. Check solderdude's very informative website, here's his review of the Sundara

 

[eddantes]

There's a lot to be said for this idea... I have the Edition XS, but bought a pair of the HE400se recently, just because they were so ridiculously cheap (<£70 on Amazon). I do prefer the Edition XS - but it's marginal and has more to do with comfort than sound quality and I suspect that as the HE400se gets physically broken in, I'd be just as happy with either once EQed. Check Amir's review and consider waiting to see if there are any Black Friday bargains to be had.

I replaced the pads on my 400se with Brainwavz XL Micro Suede Replacement Memory Foam Earpads. The comfort increase is huge; well worth the $30-40.

 

[oceansize]

I replaced the pads on my 400se with Brainwavz XL Micro Suede Replacement Memory Foam Earpads. The comfort increase is huge; well worth the $30-40.

I find them comfortable enough on the ears, it's just a matter of breaking in the headband for me.

 

[solderdude]

Thank you for your informative input.

Letting aside all the terms and science ; If you had to choose absolutely one headphone , which will make you happy listening to most kinds of music , what would it be from my list and your alternatives? I am also thinking of getting the Fioo FT1 alongside my open back HP purchase if i stay on the $300-$400 limit.

My personal favorite in my and your list may not be what could be preferred by you.
S5X
HD660S2
HD490pro
HD560S
FT3
in that order but could be happy with any of those if I could not have a HD800...

 

[tonediary]

My personal favorite in my and your list may not be what coul be preferred by you.
S5X
HD660S2
HD490pro
HD560S
FT3
in that order

Thank you. I wasn't expecting S5X to be No.1 on your recommendations and Sundara not being there at all lol.
HD660S2 over HD600 is interesting as well.

I just discovered your website , i will be reading a lot of your reviews.

 

[Jeromeof]

I personally think there is no "one headphone" to rule them all. With open backs I would recommend getting both the

1. HD600 or HD6XX if you can get it ( for perfect midrange tonality - lacks bass with EQ )
2. Hifiman Edition XS ( for that "Soundstage effect" and reasonable nice bass response for the current price)

Note: you may not get that "soundstage" effect

And then get the FiiO FT1 as a great for the price closed back

 

[tonediary]

I personally think there is no "one headphone" to rule them all. With open backs I would recommend getting both the

1. HD600 or HD6XX if you can get it ( for perfect midrange tonality - lacks bass with EQ )
2. Hifiman Edition XS ( for that "Soundstage effect" and reasonable nice bass response for the current price)

Note: you may not get that "soundstage" effect

And then get the FiiO FT1 as a great for the price closed back

You actually read my mind. I'd maybe swap Edition XS with Sundara but pretty much this was my plan even before i created this thread.
2nd option was to only get Hadenys and call it a day.

 

[tonediary]

I personally think there is no "one headphone" to rule them all. With open backs I would recommend getting both the

1. HD600 or HD6XX if you can get it ( for perfect midrange tonality - lacks bass with EQ )
2. Hifiman Edition XS ( for that "Soundstage effect" and reasonable nice bass response for the current price)

Note: you may not get that "soundstage" effect

And then get the FiiO FT1 as a great for the price closed back

I've just read your HD490pro review on your iste and you seem to prefer it over both the XS and HD600. Is that still the case?

 

[Jeromeof]

I've just read your HD490pro and you seem to prefer it over both the XS and HD600. Is that still the case?

The 490Pro was what I described as the perfect desert island headphone ( so if I had to pick one open back in this price range it would be that one ) as I think with the 2 pads do a good job of giving either good tonality or good soundstage. That was the one headphone I packed for my 2 weeks holiday ( other than AirPods for the airplane) and I still think that as it’s is also very comfortable for a daily driver while working ( at least for me ).

But I still love the HD600 and specifically I have the edition XS as my favourite late night headphone ( wife has gone to bet so I can’t listen to my speakers) but I want something that sounds “big”.

I think technically a combination of the hd600 and the edition xs is probably better but the hd490 pro is very close and arguable more comfortable.