Help me choose a pair of monitors (budget max €3500)

[LTig]

Okay, yeah I see why you're having bass problems. I'd recommend turning everything 180 degrees - speakers closer to the wall than you.

You've just beat me - I recommend this as well.

 

[fmessier6]

So you're suggesting, as a good starting change (and before treatment) to simply sit at the opposite side of the table, and have the speakers on the other side?

I assume an ideal position would be "anything but your current one" ?

I really, really don't want to have a door behind me.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

yes exactly (speakers 50-100cm away from wall), what about using the right wall on the pic? (this is also the shorter wall i think, which is good)

 

[fmessier6]

If I'm going to make such a change (flip everything 180°) at least I want to be able to have some fun and make a good use of the wall in front of me

The projector is a €100 DBPower from Amazon, in theory the output is 1080p, but this does not look 1080p to me... (EDIT: it was slightly out of focus from the projector's side, but it still doesn't look like 1080p to me)

 

[caught gesture]

If I'm going to make such a change (flip everything 180°) at least I want to be able to have some fun and make a good use of the wall in front of me

View attachment 176019

The projector is a €100 DBPower from Amazon, in theory the output is 1080p, but this does not look 1080p to me... (EDIT: it was slightly out of focus from the projector's side, but it still doesn't look like 1080p to me)

View attachment 176020

Can’t escape the importance of lens quality and that is one area where a budget projector will suffer. I have a pair of Swarovski-Optic 7*42 binoculars. The difference in detail to a budget pair of equal magnification is startling. Here is an interesting read on the importance of the lens and the difficulties for budget projector manufacturers.

 

[tetragrammaton]

And when I watch movies, I won't deny that I'd love to experience an amount of bass that I would describe as "brutal".

Get two subwoofers (either HT or DIY are your best options, you need to pay out your ass to get similar output from studio subs as you get from proper HT subs) and do the necessary room correction. Do get at least an external crossover to high pass the mains. You will also most likely want some external DSP box.

You will never get "brutal" bass without subs imho. The kind where kick drums in music make it a bit harder to breathe for a split second.

The reason - maybe silly - on why I specified that I didn't want a sub is because I thought I would be able to perceive where the bass was coming from, and also I didn't want to set up another piece of equipment if my needs would have been solved with monitors capable of providing a satisfying amount of bass.

One well integrated sub will be extremely difficult to locate. Two will be pretty much impossible. I am convinced there is no true full range without subwoofers. With that in mind, I've never heard main studio monitors like those 200+kg Genelecs!

 

[dshreter]

I would place your speakers roughly where that piano is. Close to the wall is best, just realize EQ needs to be applied to adjust for the added room gain in bass - it really should be EQed for any position to get the benefits of such a high quality monitor.

This will give you a few different benefits:
This will help reduce the impacts of SBIR. It will get your head further away from a first reflection. It will give you more bass with less strain on the speakers capabilities.

Before going further in your project I would strongly encourage getting a measurement mic and seeing the actual response in your room. It will be very instructive for you to know what impact the space has on frequency response and begin adjusting placement and EQ only then. Because your speakers are basically flat response, you know everything else is due to the room and placement. It’s possible you’re sitting in a major null for a prominent frequency in your test track.

 

[fmessier6]

Can’t escape the importance of lens quality and that is one area where a budget projector will suffer. I have a pair of Swarovski-Optic 7*42 binoculars. The difference in detail to a budget pair of equal magnification is startling. Here is an interesting read on the importance of the lens and the difficulties for budget projector manufacturers.

Thanks, I've read the article with pleasure.

I will be projecting on a cracked wall with a textured surface, so I'm not expecting much: as long as the projector will offer a decent amount of lumens and 1080p, it will be good for me.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find anything under €650, on Amazon.it.

This is Epson is €390, but limited to 1024 x 768. Reading the manual it can mimic a 16/9 stretch, but the resolution is still limited to 768p.

I would place your speakers roughly where that piano is.

Thanks, it looks tempting because I would be able to see the door.

But I was thinking about using the wall where the chair is, simply because I could also project on the wall using the whole lenght and the result would be quite insane to be honest, in terms of overall size.

Quality-wise, well.. the wall has an irregular textured surface, not much that can be done there, butI'd say it's worth a try just to see if something like this is replicable: a composer room that looks like a movie mixing room:

This of course makes perfect sense in my head, but I'll need to start moving things around to see if this is actually doable.

The Left Neumann KH310 will arrive on Tuesday, I'll run a few tests and see if they can offer good results without a sub, and experiment with placement. Otherwise I'll purchase a sub as well.

I still feel a little guilty about the purchase to be honest, so far I've never spent €3700 in (almost) a single transaction, but I hope this feeling will pass

 

[dshreter]

Thanks, I've read the article with pleasure.

I will be projecting on a cracked wall with a textured surface, so I'm not expecting much: as long as the projector will offer a decent amount of lumens and 1080p, it will be good for me.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find anything under €650, on Amazon.it.

This is Epson is €390, but limited to 1024 x 768. Reading the manual it can mimic a 16/9 stretch, but the resolution is still limited to 768p.



Thanks, it looks tempting because I would be able to see the door.

But I was thinking about using the wall where the chair is, simply because I could also project on the wall using the whole lenght and the result would be quite insane to be honest, in terms of overall size.

Quality-wise, well.. the wall has an irregular textured surface, not much that can be done there, butI'd say it's worth a try just to see if something like this is replicable: a composer room that looks like a movie mixing room:

View attachment 176211 View attachment 176219

This of course makes perfect sense in my head, but I'll need to start moving things around to see if this is actually doable.

Yeah either wall is fine, was just responding to your desire to face the door. If you can flip around your desk that’s equally appropriate.

 

[fmessier6]

UPDATE:

Tonight I flipped everything 180°. I'm still with one single KH310 monitor, the second is coming on Tuesday.

The KH310 is 50cm from the wall.

The results so far are pretty depressing. My observations:

1) From the listening position you see in the picture, no bass is perceived from the KH310. Like, at all.
2/10th of what I was hearing before. This makes no sense, especially because angle and distance are identical as before, "just" the placement changed, but the result is infinitely worse.

BUT... if I move backwards 1.5m with my back at the piano, the bass comes back at full force. Bigger than before, but less tight.

2) If I switch the KH310 with the HS8, the bass is more pronounced but more headache-inducing as well, and it reminds me when I had my HS8 near the wall in my previous bedroom studio. Funny enough, back then I solved the problem by having my desk in the middle of the room.

3) Visually, the whole setup looks pretty neat, I have to be honest here.
But when I heard a crackle behind me I jumped one meter, and suddenly remembered why I never have my back at the door.

I'm not sure how I should proceed here, if I should do something before Tuesday comes and I'll test everything again with both monitors.

 

[sarumbear]

Dear all,

After returning my Adam a77x hoping to never deal with Adam as a company ever again, I'm back in the market for a pair of studio monitors and I was wondering if you could help me narrow down my choices and provide some advice.

My budget is (max) €3500 for the pair. Ideally, they should be able to provide enough bass even without the use of a subwoofer.

I am currently using a pair of HS8 since 2015 but I'm dissatisfied with the amount of bass they provide, which I find underwhelming.

I'm a contemporary classical and film music composer, but I also listen to lots of bass heavy music for pleasure. I've been working for seven years with Yahama's HS8 and a pair of AKG K240 MKII, which is a pretty basic setup, and now I think it's finally time for an upgrade. I would also change headphones but I'm using a Komplete Audio 2 and I'm not sure how it will handle some Sennheiser HD 660, for example (volume-wise).

These are some of the available monitors in my price range on Thomann.com.

KRK Rokit RP10-3 G4	€ 444
EVE audio SC307	€ 959
Focal Solo 6 Be red burr ash	€ 959
Quested S7R Mk3 Active	€ 1.111
Focal Twin 6 Be red burr ash	€ 1.590
Neumann KH 310	€ 1.848
Quested V2108 B-Stock (over budget)	€ 2.333 (over budget)

I'm oriented towards the KH310, especially because they are held in high praise by my colleagues. They are slightly over budget, but it's fine.

Thank you!

Consider Monoprice Encore. I heard it and I thought for the price it’s pretty good.

Monoprice Encore B6 Bookshelf Speaker Review

Monoprice Encore B6 Bookshelf Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[Pearljam5000]

UPDATE:

Tonight I flipped everything 180°. I'm still with one single KH310 monitor, the second is coming on Tuesday.

The KH310 is 50cm from the wall.

View attachment 176297

The results so far are pretty depressing. My observations:

1) From the listening position you see in the picture, no bass is perceived from the KH310. Like, at all.
2/10th of what I was hearing before. This makes no sense, especially because angle and distance are identical as before, "just" the placement changed, but the result is infinitely worse.

BUT... if I move backwards 1.5m with my back at the piano, the bass comes back at full force. Bigger than before, but less tight.

2) If I switch the KH310 with the HS8, the bass is more pronounced but more headache-inducing as well, and it reminds me when I had my HS8 near the wall in my previous bedroom studio. Funny enough, back then I solved the problem by having my desk in the middle of the room.

3) Visually, the whole setup looks pretty neat, I have to be honest here.
But when I heard a crackle behind me I jumped one meter, and suddenly remembered why I never have my back at the door.

I'm not sure how I should proceed here, if I should do something before Tuesday comes and I'll test everything again with both monitors.

When is your second kh310 coming?

 

[dshreter]

I'm not sure how I should proceed here, if I should do something before Tuesday comes and I'll test everything again with both monitors.

You should do measurements in the room with REW. It’s pretty easy to get jumbled up in comparisons and lose track of how something is supposed to sound. This is one of the reasons measurements are so valuable. If they confirm what you’re hearing then you can set off to find a solution.

This really isn’t something you can easily judge by ear.

 

[fmessier6]

You should do measurements in the room with REW. It’s pretty easy to get jumbled up in comparisons and lose track of how something is supposed to sound. This is one of the reasons measurements are so valuable. If they confirm what you’re hearing then you can set off to find a solution.

This really isn’t something you can easily judge by ear.

Thanks, I will, as soon as the other monitor arrives on Tuesday. There's a guide here, unless you suggest some other resources?

Ps. The dog in your profile picture is absolutely adorable, is he/she your dog?

 

[dshreter]

Thanks, I will, as soon as the other monitor arrives on Tuesday. There's a guide here, unless you suggest some other resources?

Ps. The dog in your profile picture is absolutely adorable, is he/she your dog?

He was my dog, and a very good dog.

The guide here is a great resource to first learn how to get REW started. I also like the GIK guide though it’s based on an older version of the software. But it’s a bit more comprehensive if I remember right.

Room EQ Wizard Tutorial - GIK Acoustics

In this video we take you through downloading, installing, and using Room EQ Wizard including microphone setup, soundcard calibration and how to take a measurement.

www.gikacoustics.com

 

[caught gesture]

UPDATE:

Tonight I flipped everything 180°. I'm still with one single KH310 monitor, the second is coming on Tuesday.

The KH310 is 50cm from the wall.

View attachment 176297

The results so far are pretty depressing. My observations:

1) From the listening position you see in the picture, no bass is perceived from the KH310. Like, at all.
2/10th of what I was hearing before. This makes no sense, especially because angle and distance are identical as before, "just" the placement changed, but the result is infinitely worse.

BUT... if I move backwards 1.5m with my back at the piano, the bass comes back at full force. Bigger than before, but less tight.

2) If I switch the KH310 with the HS8, the bass is more pronounced but more headache-inducing as well, and it reminds me when I had my HS8 near the wall in my previous bedroom studio. Funny enough, back then I solved the problem by having my desk in the middle of the room.

3) Visually, the whole setup looks pretty neat, I have to be honest here.
But when I heard a crackle behind me I jumped one meter, and suddenly remembered why I never have my back at the door.

I'm not sure how I should proceed here, if I should do something before Tuesday comes and I'll test everything again with both monitors.

Don’t get depressed! Getting the bass right in a small room is a process that requires some time. I highly recommend the advice of taking measurements each time you make a major change. I would wait until you have both monitors then start the journey. Once you have a proficiency with REW, you will quite quickly find the optimum position in your room. I know that you need to balance the layout with your creative needs. I would first find the optimum position ignoring those needs and then work towards them with your placement.

 

[Digby]

That is quite a large room, at least in the height dimension. The Neumanns look pretty small in it. It might be the case that you need even larger speakers and/or multiple subwoofers.

That track you put up as an example of bottoming out, doesn't sound like music that someone would typically listen to. It sounds like some kind of speaker workout, that is deliberately using frequencies that wouldn't be present to the same extent in normal music (more a home cinema subwoofer workout than anything else). So maybe this isn't the best example of typical usage.

It sounds a bit silly, but maybe take the speaker all round the room and find where it sounds best. Perhaps somewhere in the corner (that corner you are using has a window, so much of the bass will just go out the window).

 

[LTig]

UPDATE:

Tonight I flipped everything 180°. I'm still with one single KH310 monitor, the second is coming on Tuesday.

The KH310 is 50cm from the wall.

View attachment 176297

The results so far are pretty depressing. My observations:

1) From the listening position you see in the picture, no bass is perceived from the KH310. Like, at all.
2/10th of what I was hearing before. This makes no sense, especially because angle and distance are identical as before, "just" the placement changed, but the result is infinitely worse.

BUT... if I move backwards 1.5m with my back at the piano, the bass comes back at full force. Bigger than before, but less tight.

It seems your listening position is at a null where bass reflections cancel each other. Or your hearing is adapted to a non flat frequency response with higher bass due to missing room EQ. Or both ...

 

[fmessier6]

Considering their price, I don't know why you don't like the sound from these monitors.

I simply thought it was time to improve my equipment. I wanted a better speaker overall, but also one that could deliver a stronger bass response. My budged allowed some room for movement, otherwise I would have chosen the KRK Rokit 10'' G4, which would have looked like a three-way bigger and slightly more costly brother of the HS8.

I've been writing music for a living for almost eight years now and I wanted to give myself a "little" treat, simple as that.

Initially I bought a pair of Adam a77x, and I was pretty satisfied but ultimately decided to return them when I noticed some distortion with piano tones. Too bad because the price was really attractive, they looked rad and I was perfectly happy with their bass response.

Since then... they've disappeared from Thomann.com.

That is quite a large room, at least in the height dimension. The Neumanns look pretty small in it. It might be the case that you need even larger speakers and/or multiple subwoofers.

I tried sitting at the end of the room where the piano is right now, and I'd say that volume and bass are enough for my taste and for some reason this position is so far the best one for listening. Not really practical for working, though.
I've been testing some movies (Dune, Jaws, Jurassic World) and the bass has some nice unexpeced punch. Especially for a single speaker.

Adding more bass (with a sub) in an untreated room, I'm not sure if the outcome would be nice.
I want to try both speakers tomorrow when the left one arrives, that's for sure.

Moving towards the desk the bass loses its impact and in some cases (rap music with 808s) it sort of disappears, while on the HS8 is still present, albeit with this headache-inducing boom response.

This is interesting and frustrating. My initial position in the center of the room provided an ok response, but things changed drastically by moving in this one. Some things improved, some will require some degree of experimentation.

Don’t get depressed! Getting the bass right in a small room is a process that requires some time.

Thanks. This is frustrating because there's so much to do and experiment, that I don't know if I'm actually making progress or not. And as I previously mentioned, it does not help that I'm also second guessing my choice of monitors, but that's simply related to their quite high cost.

 

[dshreter]

Thanks. This is frustrating because there's so much to do and experiment, that I don't know if I'm actually making progress or not. And as I previously mentioned, it does not help that I'm also second guessing my choice of monitors, but that's simply related to their quite high cost.

The deeper the actual bass response, the stronger that the room interactions will be. A speaker that doesn't actually have much low-end response won't even strongly activate the room modes in the first place so it can seem easier to work with at a glance. When you have a microphone and test sweeps in hand the experimentation will become a lot more productive, and you can adjust things with purpose.

You'll measure, see the nulls and a peaks in the response. Then you move the speakers a bit closer or further, then move the listening position a bit closer or further. You'll then know exactly what is contributing to the current situation vs a scattershot approach. Get that UMIK asap.