Help me choose a pair of monitors (budget max €3500)

[dominikz]

I would do this for a week if it meant getting to a point where I'm satisfied. I've tried a total of ten positions before sitting down and measuring the last one (thanks for the tips!).

I should have done that from the beginning, but I can start again tomorrow with the ones that I remember were more decent.

Speaking of which, the only two positions where the monitors have a strong bass presence is when I sit at least two/two and a half meters from them, pretending they're midranges. They are positioned 50-80 cm from the walls.

But the bass is very, very headache-inducing, almost unbearable.

View attachment 176819View attachment 176820

Moving them towards me or me towards them, bye bye bass.

View attachment 176821

Now, this might be a silly question, but worst case scenario before treatment: a strong 10''/12'' subwoofer could help these issues, or would it acerbate them?

I could always go back to my HS8 (which I know really well since I've worked with them for seven years) and add a sub.

Is your room square? Could you post your room dimensions (width, length, height)?

Perhaps this calculator could help you with a few initial speaker locations while you experiment: noaudiophile.com - Speaker Placement Calculators

Also, in REW there is the "Room Simulation" tool that might help you get some idea how the room modes change as you move your speakers and listening position around:

 

[fmessier6]

Those Neumann kh 310 look fancy, bet they'd sound good.

I think the worst mistake I've made in this upgrade was to purchase high-end monitors without having a treated room where they could shine and offer their true potential. Lesson learned.
I'd really love to A/B them with the HS8 using a monitor controller, but I don't have one at the moment. It's something I think I should do as soon as possible.

By listening to them alone, the only major thing to report is huge separation of the elements, especially with soundtracks and classical music. It's confusing because I was used to a sound that was more glued. That's because the KH310 are three way monitors, I assume.

I don't think I've ever listened to a three-way studio monitor before, at least not for extended periods of time.
And the A77x I had before these were a 2.5 way.

I would try the “RIP BASS” setup again with the speakers and seating position in slightly smaller equilateral triangle than what I see in the photo. Also get the speakers as close to the front wall as possible, meaning you will now be seating a bit closer to the front wall too. Then take some measurements and report back here.

Before this, I would like to try a wall I haven't tried yet, the right one (looking at my scheme) and following your suggestions: a slightly smaller equilateral triangle, and speakers very close to the wall.

The reason is because I bought a new 1080p Optoma projector (it does the job, on the expensive side of my budget, €550, and with an annoying black border around the picture I wasn't able to get rid of in more than on our, it must be a feature of DLP projectors) and it's the only wall where it can display a larger image. On the opposite side there's also a shelf where I can position it and it's quite convenient to be honest.

I will take measurements tonight after relocating the table there, which is going to be a pain since it's really heavy and requires two people each time.

 

[jim33]

Hi, A couple of things that may have been mentioned but I'm just skimming this thread. The one thing to hold onto is that you've bought a great pair of studio monitors. It will take time for you to adjust to a new set of speakers and to understand their benefits. As someone else said , monitors are not designed to 'wow' you. They are deisgned to sound boring , and you have to work at it to make your output exciting. If you like LFE from movies you need a subwoofer - Lot's of the good stuff goes in the .1 channel, but - if you add a subwoofer to that room currently it will probably make things worse. You've got so much phase cancellation going on that needs fixing first. Forget digital solutions at this stage - you need some good old fashioned bass traps and rockwool panels. Those speakers will be at their best as midfield - you need to let the air move for the 3 way to come alive, so I'd go back to having them away from a wall by about 50cms and then put your desk in the room at a point where there is the least bass cancellation. Then when you add treatment it will just get better. Don't worry about moving the furniture all the time , just move the speakers and walk around the room listening to find the best spot. REW will just show you what you can quickly hear. That room is an acoustic nightmare but it's a good size and shape to make better as a studio/cinema setup. If you clap in that room does it reverberate like mad ? Quickest test for a terrible sounding room

 

[fmessier6]

If you like LFE from movies you need a subwoofer

The plan that made everything slightly more complicated was generated from my idea of making the room (a mostly square room made of concrete...) a hybrid writing room / home theater.

Meaning:

- I needed a projector (done! it's not perfect but it's miles better than the €70 chinese one I was using)
- I needed a sub for watching movies, something stupidly loud (as mentioned I love a strong punch in the stomach ) I could turn off when mixing music (maybe with a pedal on/off switch. When a pedal bypasses the sub, the speakers ignore the crossover and go back to trying to reproduce the frequencies they were cut with the highpass, correct?)
- I needed to make peace with the fact that I'm asking a lot from my room

The goal is making writing music for film exciting, and give my studio a little change after two years with the same identical setup.
Going into a dark room, a projector, watching movies for inspiration in the evening without the need to leave my room? Sign me in.

Look at the studio of Hans Zimmer, modeled after a viennese brothel. I assume it's mostly a showroom or a space to impress clients, but it works for him, and it's honestly very impressive.

Back to the room. I don't care if the acoustics aren't perfect, to be honest. But right now they are a complete disaster.

Since I predominantly do final mixes and masters on headphones and my room isn't treated yet, the best bet would have been to use the money to build a decent, less expensive 2.1 system and think about treatment afterwards.

If you clap in that room does it reverberate like mad ?

Not at all.

Is your room square? Could you post your room dimensions (width, length, height)?

I will tonight. Thanks for your help, this thread is pure gold, so much information, and as I previously mentioned, I am really grateful for this.

 

[jim33]

In one of your earlier posts you mention that at a certain postition in the room the bass was overwhelming. I'd say that is the best ratio of speaker / wall / desk position you should be sitting in. At that point you can then tweak down the bass using the controls on the speaker. It's better to reduce bass than add it so help maintain headroom on the system. Unfortunatly bass freqs are the hardest to get consistent in any space. I've worked in a lot of studios and they vary front to back in most rooms to some degree.

 

[fmessier6]

This is a measurement from a position where the bass was anecdotically perceived by me as strong. I measured only the right speaker (and in a few moments I'll position the left one. I won't rotate the desk today because it's heavy. I will sit where the lamp is and listen/measure, starting after writing this post.)

As we can see from the measurement of the right speaker, the difference is that the "dip" moved to 80/100, and not around 60 anymore. I'm not sure if this means things are better or worse. Listening by ear, the bass on different tracks has now more presence. And this is good news, I think.

Let's see the graph:

And let's see the old measurement, taken from the same position, but with the microphone pointing the old position of the speaker, which was roughly where the lamp is.

As predictable as it is, sitting where the lamp is, the bass isn't as strong. But I want to try to position the left speaker as well now. As mentioned, the idea is projecting movies on this wall above the speakers, and have the desk (hypotetically) at the center. But it's not a problem if it has to be positioned slightly offset, on the right. Maybe this slight offset will be necessary.

I'll try now with the other speaker as well, and attach pictures so it will be more clear what I'm doing.

 

[fmessier6]

I tried both KH310 and HS8, and I got very similar results: strong bass sitting in my chair against the wall (listening position 2) and less perceived bass in the "rip bass" position 1.

Here's the graph, apologize for the print screen but my export was funky for some reason.

Orange is sitting against the wall, green is sitting in the center of the room, the direction the speakers are pointing.

My point of view for the orange graph, the "good" position. My head is turned to the right, obviously.

A projector is set up on the shelf, and projects on the wall that you see in this picture. The result is very nice considering the state of the wall. I'm really happy about the projection, and ideally I would be sitting in the middle of the room, looking at my screen and the the wall behind, ideally with a small couch behind my chair or on the side if I want to relax and watch a movie. Ideally.

Good news, the HS8 can deliver an exceptionally loud bass response too and I owe them an apology.

Bad news is... mixing with my head turned right might not be too professional.

 

[dshreter]

Setting perpendicular to the speakers doesn’t make any sense, so I would put that idea on ice.

I can’t really make sense of the measurements. You moved the microphone to the two seating positions you’ve described? Because the measurements are extremely similar in a way that doesn’t make sense for moving the microphone to such a different position - in other words you shouldn’t have an identical null. And were those measurements made with both speakers together or just one playing?

I’d like to help more, but it’s not clear what is going on.

 

[jim33]

I'd suggest you set the room up with the geography you want and then fix the acoustics around it. Bass elevation at the back of a room that has no treatment is to expected. That isn't the optimal listening position though. Unfortunately your room mode cancellation seems to be right where you want your desk to be. Once you have everything where you want it then make some measurements of the dimensions. That will help with the physics of your issue. As for Hans Zimmers listening room - he has stuff all over the walls / floor space breaking up the reflections. Not treatment , just stuff. You at least need some membrane based, bass traps to help reduce your LF reflections. How are you at DIY? How are you testing the acoustics - Sine wave sweep ? Music ?

 

[fmessier6]

I'd suggest you set the room up with the geography you want and then fix the acoustics around it.

Thank you both. I I rearranged my furniture in order to use the larger wall to project, and look directly in front of it.

I was inspired by this picture and the layout of pretty much every movie mixing room.

By the way, these are the measurements:

Step 1: Remove all the unnecessary items, and get ready to herniate a couple of discs by moving a 50 kg desk.

Step 2: Table successfully relocated, disks successfully herniated.

Step 3: Moved the piano to the other side. Placed my 6 tons 2011 Dell Ultrasharp on the desk. Booked an appointment with a chiropractor.

After a short break I'll position the speakers, turn on the projector and take a photo, and do a measurement with REW.

There is some space behind me because I would love to put a couch there!

 

[LTig]

View attachment 177048View attachment 177052
I tried both KH310 and HS8, and I got very similar results: strong bass sitting in my chair against the wall (listening position 2) and less perceived bass in the "rip bass" position 1.

Here's the graph, apologize for the print screen but my export was funky for some reason.

Orange is sitting against the wall, green is sitting in the center of the room, the direction the speakers are pointing.

View attachment 177043

Could you post the .mdat files of both FRs? Because I think the green curve is the better one (it will be visible when you shift it up around 6-8 dB so that both curves overlap/meet in the range around 1 kHz):

• The difference between the peaks at 50 and 80 Hz and the dip at 64 Hz is smaller.
• The dips at 100 Hz are smaller.

EDIT: Here are REW measurements of my main system (Klein & Hummel O300D, predecessor of Neumann KH310, and one Genelec 7060b sub, crossover at 80 Hz) in the living room (50 sqm, listening distance 3.8 m in the middle of the room, Speakers 0.9 m off the front wall and 1.8 m off the side walls, sub behind the left speaker direct at front wall) with and without sub (no EQ):

The sub improves the deepest bass below 50 Hz and reduces the peak around 80 to 100Hz. The dips at 52 and 73 Hz are not improved. REW suggested these EQ settings:

• Filter 1: ON PK Fc 41.10 Hz Gain -4.00 dB Q 5.594
• Filter 2: ON PK Fc 278.0 Hz Gain -2.50 dB Q 5.000
• Filter 3: ON PK Fc 374.0 Hz Gain -2.30 dB Q 4.829
• Filter 4: ON PK Fc 60.00 Hz Gain 6.00 dB Q 4.000

This is the result:

 

[jim33]

I'd duggest running some constant band limited pink noise from REW designed for subwoofer calibration ( not too loud ) as a contant source. Or Pink noise with 24bd low pass filter set at 200Hz from your DAW so you just get a rumble. Then just move around a bit to listen to what the bass frequencies are doing at diffreent spots in the room. That is an easier way to start rather than lots of sweeps on REW. Do you have the Sofa yet ? That would help if you put it in the room.

 

[fmessier6]

Thanks for sharing your measurements.

I have made two new measurements based on the new position, which are quite interesting, and exactly the opposite of what I was expecting.

Position 1: Good/ok perceived bass response. A bit headache inducing but you can feel it's there.

Position 2 (couch): "Rip bass" feeling.

And a comparison between the two:

Could you post the .mdat files of both FRs?

https://filebin.net/31tv03wfl0426vfw

Let me know if you see just one.

Also, the ones I made today: https://filebin.net/8kh54j1a2nlpztcg

 

[feynman]

I am/have been reading this with considerable interest, but just wanted to say that I find your room lovely. What a great space to work or even just listen.

Good luck with finding the right setup. I think it will be worth your time.

 

[fmessier6]

I'd duggest running some constant band limited pink noise from REW designed for subwoofer calibration ( not too loud ) as a contant source.

Thanks. I run it tonight for a few minutes, and it was quite useful to show that the bass accumulates mainly in the corners behind me, both.

Measurement from the right corner. The volume of the test wasn't as high as before because it's past midnight here at the moment.

There is no sofa yet, I'll place it in a day or two.

What I learnt this afternoon is that the position I was at the moment was giving me the best bass response I had heard so far.

Then I picked a track from the TENET soundtrack, the first one of the album, and I felt the bass wasn't there. I took three steps behind me, went near the corners, and all of a sudden I felt like I had a huge sub in front of me.

I am/have been reading this with considerable interest, but just wanted to say that I find your room lovely. What a great space to work or even just listen.

Good luck with finding the right setup. I think it will be worth your time.

Thank you so much, I really needed this. Sometimes we get lost in the details and lose focus on the bigger picture.

I'm quite frustrated and depressed at the moment and I feel like I've opened a huge Pandora's box.
I'm not even sure the Neumann will ever perform at their full potential here, even with treatment, and I'm tempted to go the sub route and keep my HS8. Hard choice, there are so many factors here that I'm experiencing a case of analysis paralysis.

 

[fmessier6]

I've been paralyzed for two years and haven't even purchased my monitors.

Would you be able to find a way to borrow both set of speakers from a dealer and try them in your own room?

When I couldn't decide between two gaming mice, I bought both from Amazon and tried them for a couple of days.
I ended up liking them so much that so I kept both.

But the total cost was €50, which is significantly different from borrowing something that you could accidentally scratch, or damage. A source of anxiety since Thomann.com checks for the integrity of the return before giving the refund (as they should).

You'll get there!

I appreciate your optimism. This is unexpectedly hard, because every decision produces considerable subsequent problems. Every answer to the questions I have produces other questions. And the window for returning the speakers is closing soon.

As icing on the cake, I'm not completely sold on the projector I bought either.

But sometimes it helps to write down your biggest worries on a piece of paper, with no filters. Just honesty.

This will help you understand how you got to the current paralysis (which is pretty normal by the way, there is a lot to choose!).

You know yourself better than everyone. For example, I know that sometimes I make emotive, impulse decisions based on my feelings and gut instincts. And sometimes they don't make much sense.

I'm a contemporary classical composer but I have a subwoofer in my car that is as big as my trunk, and it considerably overpowers the audio setup at the front. When I drive I'm not happy if the bass isn't rearranging my internal organs. It's silly, but it makes me so happy I couldn't imagine not having a sub in my car, it would make me instantly depressed.

My life has been constantly filled with bold emotional (meaning driven by strong emotions, not impulsive) decisions that most of the times paid off and helped shape my career.

With this said, if I had to untangle my ball of wool, it would be something like this, cronologically:

1) I want a new set of monitors as a treat for working hard in these two difficult Covid years. I was happy with my HS8, I just wanted a stronger bass presence and, well.. new shiny monitors as well because why not.
2) I buy the Adam a77x, and I am so happy, they are better than my HS8 and the bass is incredible (on this forum someone tells me that the HS8 should have been able to deliver some good bass as well, but I am in complete denial)
3) I experience midrange distortion on piano tones, Adam admits the problem, but I still test both speakers for two/three weeks.
4) I call Thomann and arrange a refund, after a very stressful phone call. UPS doesn't come to pick up the parcel so I drive to a UPS center with the two speakers, two hours before a work flight with mandatory Covid testing requirements (additional stress).
5) I am frustrated, but I'm stubborn and I still want a new set of monitors. From my hotel room, I see that the Quested V2018 are on sale as B-stock on Thomann, these are Hans Zimmer's monitors and I never saw them go on sale. The specs are good and I love the way they look, and despite the high price tag, I take a decision: I will buy them the moment I come home, in three days from now.
6) I come home and they are not in stock anymore.
5) I ask this forum for advice, and this thread is born. Two weeks later, my frustrations revolve around three things:

a) I can't perceive a huge difference betweeen the HS8 and these, but I also don't have the chance to A/B them, and I believe my room isn't perfectly suited for making the KH310 shine unless I treat it.
b) I feel I blew my budget on these. As previously mentioned I feel guilt about the purchase. This is personal of course, and the only solution is see if it goes away naturally, or return the speakers. Spending 2K per monitor would have made sense probably for the Quested only because they are used in my field by Hans and many high-level film composers, so the extra budget was driven by this reason as well (which is fine IMHO).
c) The return window for the KH310 is closing, so I don't know whether I should keep them or return them.
d I'm not sure if buying a sub will be a good idea but I'm tempted to go that way and crossover with the HS8.

also 6) As I type, the Quested V2018 are on sale again, right now...

 

[LTig]

Thanks for sharing your measurements.

I have made two new measurements based on the new position, which are quite interesting, and exactly the opposite of what I was expecting.

Position 1: Good/ok perceived bass response. A bit headache inducing but you can feel it's there.

View attachment 177214View attachment 177216

Position 2 (couch): "Rip bass" feeling.

View attachment 177215View attachment 177217

And a comparison between the two:
View attachment 177218



https://filebin.net/31tv03wfl0426vfw

Let me know if you see just one.

There is only one (2nd one).

Also, the ones I made today: https://filebin.net/8kh54j1a2nlpztcg

This contains 6 measurements, 2 x named gen5 and 4 x named gen6. What's the differences between these?

Did you use RTA-mode when acquiring pink noise? Did you use the moving microphone method?

 

[RobL]

Not wanting to gum up the works but if the Quested are your dream monitors….just saying

 

[LTig]

5) I am frustrated, but I'm stubborn and I still want a new set of monitors. From my hotel room, I see that the Quested V2018 are on sale as B-stock on Thomann, these are Hans Zimmer's monitors and I never saw them go on sale. The specs are good and I love the way they look, and despite the high price tag, I take a decision: I will buy them the moment I come home, in three days from now.
6) I come home and they are not in stock anymore.
5) I ask this forum for advice, and this thread is born. Two weeks later, my frustrations revolve around three things:

a) I can't perceive a huge difference betweeen the HS8 and these, but I also don't have the chance to A/B them, and I believe my room isn't perfectly suited for making the KH310 shine unless I treat it.

I remember you wrote that the KH310 shows much more separation of instruments especially when many are playing. That should be one reason to keep them if you need them as a tool.

b) I feel I blew my budget on these. As previously mentioned I feel guilt about the purchase. This is personal of course, and the only solution is see if it goes away naturally, or return the speakers. Spending 2K per monitor would have made sense probably for the Quested only because they are used in my field by Hans and many high-level film composers, so the extra budget was driven by this reason as well (which is fine IMHO).

If you'd be happy with the KH310s right now then my advice would be to keep them. The guilt to have payed too much will be replaced by the joy they deliver. Being as it is now it's difficult to foresay.

c) The return window for the KH310 is closing, so I don't know whether I should keep them or return them.
d I'm not sure if buying a sub will be a good idea but I'm tempted to go that way and crossover with the HS8.

also 6) As I type, the Quested V2018 are on sale again, right now...

What I've read here the specs for the Quested are not better (AFAIK) than for the KH310 (112 dB SPL from 40Hz to 20 kHz). But even if they can play louder in the bass it does not fix your problem when you sit in a cancelling null. No speaker can do this regardless of size. Room treatment at these low frequencies is difficult and expensive. A sub (or more) may be able to help. If this means you must return the KH310s to afford one or two subs so be it.

 

[fairchild_670]

Go for PSI's. Best sounding speakers in that range. Others don't compare.