Help me choose a pair of monitors (budget max €3500)

[fmessier6]

This afternoon after some research I found a local shop where I had the chance to try the KH310 in a very large room.

They only had the left one but I figured it was better than nothing. Impressive monitor, the highs and mids were celestial and exceptional, voices and instruments were materializing in front of my eyes, just from a single monitor.

Unfortunately I was very, very underwhelmed by the bass presence (especially listening to electronic music - Skrillex/Deadmau5) but I understand that testing a single speaker in a shop is a suboptimal way to measure the performance of said speaker.

Using a Deadmau5 reference track ("4ware") I'd say that my HS8 provide an ok amount of bass, the single KH310 was barely producing anything noticeable, and the a77x I had last month were very good in this regard (maybe due to the double 7' woofer? I don't know)

I wish they had two units but I could not make one appair out of thin air.

With this said, if I go the KH310 route, I won't have the resources to purchase a Neumann sub, so maybe my best option for now is to try the HS8S sub and report back?

 

[caught gesture]

This afternoon after some research I found a local shop where I had the chance to try the KH310 in a very large room.

They only had the left one but I figured it was better than nothing. Impressive monitor, the highs and mids were celestial and exceptional, voices and instruments were materializing in front of my eyes, just from a single monitor.

Unfortunately I was very, very underwhelmed by the bass presence (especially listening to electronic music - Skrillex/Deadmau5) but I understand that testing a single speaker in a shop is a suboptimal way to measure the performance of said speaker.

Using a Deadmau5 reference track ("4ware") I'd say that my HS8 provide an ok amount of bass, the single KH310 was barely producing anything noticeable, and the a77x I had last month were very good in this regard (maybe due to the double 7' woofer? I don't know)

I wish they had two units but I could not make one appair out of thin air.

With this said, if I go the KH310 route, I won't have the resources to purchase a Neumann sub, so maybe my best option for now is to try the HS8S sub and report back?

If you like everything about the HS8s apart from lacking bass then adding a couple of subs seems like the way ahead. If however you noticed the difference in quality across all the frequencies (except bass) on one KH310, then I’d order a pair to appraise in your own space. If you order from Thomann you can always return them (you’ll lose some shipping costs if I remember correctly). Everything I’ve heard about them and all the measurements I’ve seen indicate that they are an exceptional monitor. A pair of 210 mm woofers capable of 34 Hz (±3 dB) is a great starting place.

 

[Pearljam5000]

This afternoon after some research I found a local shop where I had the chance to try the KH310 in a very large room.

They only had the left one but I figured it was better than nothing. Impressive monitor, the highs and mids were celestial and exceptional, voices and instruments were materializing in front of my eyes, just from a single monitor.

Unfortunately I was very, very underwhelmed by the bass presence (especially listening to electronic music - Skrillex/Deadmau5) but I understand that testing a single speaker in a shop is a suboptimal way to measure the performance of said speaker.

Using a Deadmau5 reference track ("4ware") I'd say that my HS8 provide an ok amount of bass, the single KH310 was barely producing anything noticeable, and the a77x I had last month were very good in this regard (maybe due to the double 7' woofer? I don't know)

I wish they had two units but I could not make one appair out of thin air.

With this said, if I go the KH310 route, I won't have the resources to purchase a Neumann sub, so maybe my best option for now is to try the HS8S sub and report back?

That's weird i heard the HS8 in a shop and they had 0 bass and owned the KH120 and it had tons of bass and kH310 must have much more than that

 

[sweetchaos]

For under 2000 eur/each, only 2 studio monitors (that we've seen measurements for), beat the Neumann KH 310A in terms of bass.

Genelec 8350A and 8050B have LFX of 27hz, while the Neumann KH 310A has LFX of 30hz.

LFX: low frequency extension, which is bass extension (in hz) at -6db point.

Ignoring the "you must correct the boomy bass for your room" discussion.

 

[test1223]

The room and placement is very important, therefore the different perception and therefore you definitely need equalisation. I know I am on repeat but this is the way. It is pure luck if you get really good bass without it.

If the subwoofer didn't provide equalisation you definitely need software or hardware eq and a measurement microphone. And the HS8S might not provide high enough volume.

 

[HiFidFan]

Wilson TuneTots are out. . .

 

[test1223]

For under 2000 eur/each, only 2 studio monitors (that we've seen measurements for), beat the Neumann KH 310A in terms of bass.

Genelec 8350A and 8050B have LFX of 27hz, while the Neumann KH 310A has LFX of 30hz.

LFX: low frequency extension, which is bass extension (in hz) at -6db point.

Ignoring the "you must correct the boomy bass for your room" discussion.

Yes every small 8" monitor is way to small for bass heavy music with higher volume.

 

[fmessier6]

If you like everything about the HS8s apart from lacking bass then adding a couple of subs seems like the way ahead. If however you noticed the difference in quality across all the frequencies (except bass) on one KH310, then I’d order a pair to appraise in your own space. If you order from Thomann you can always return them (you’ll lose some shipping costs if I remember correctly). Everything I’ve heard about them and all the measurements I’ve seen indicate that they are an exceptional monitor. A pair of 210 mm woofers capable of 34 Hz (±3 dB) is a great starting place.

When I tried the aforementioned Deadmau5 piece, I really felt that the monitor was struggling with the electronic kick drum and sub bass.
We also tried some hard rock pieces, and again, the acoustic kick drum in these pieces completely lacked the "thump".

Ok, it was just one speaker, but I was actually really surprised by what I was hearing because everything else was more than eccellent, but bass was very timid, if barely there. The rest was incredible, especially with rock, soul and ballads. I wish I had the chance to hear both of them in action!

Each one of my colleagues swears by these monitors, and I am really tempted to give them a shot, but for now I'm still evaluating if maybe it's worth trying the HS8S subwoofer first with my HS8. As a first step.

Or... go directly with the Neumann KH310 and try them for 14 days (the return window for Thomann Europe). But if they lacked bass, well.. I can't afford a sub for them at the moment, especially because the Neumann ones start at 1400 IIRC.

In my list I didn't mention the Quested S8R because there isn't a single shop that is selling them in Europe, I'm assuming they went out of production? The price was interesting at around €1500 each.

 

[caught gesture]

Ok, it was just one speaker, but I was actually really surprised by what I was hearing because everything else was more than eccellent, but bass was very timid, if barely there. The rest was incredible, especially with rock, soul and ballads. I wish I had the chance to hear both of them in action!

This is surprising. When I look at the eq while the deadmau5 track is playing, the bass drops off between 40Hz and 30Hz by about 3dB and keeps going down at that rate. I’d of thought the KH 310s would amply generate that bass with the amplification and woofers they have. Maybe it was the fact of only having one monitor. Did you adjust any of the settings on the back of the monitor?

Not Europe anymore but https://studiocare.com/products/quested-s8r-mkiii

 

[dfuller]

When I tried the aforementioned Deadmau5 piece, I really felt that the monitor was struggling with the electronic kick drum and sub bass.
We also tried some hard rock pieces, and again, the acoustic kick drum in these pieces completely lacked the "thump".

Ok, it was just one speaker, but I was actually really surprised by what I was hearing because everything else was more than eccellent, but bass was very timid, if barely there. The rest was incredible, especially with rock, soul and ballads. I wish I had the chance to hear both of them in action!

Each one of my colleagues swears by these monitors, and I am really tempted to give them a shot, but for now I'm still evaluating if maybe it's worth trying the HS8S subwoofer first with my HS8. As a first step.

Or... go directly with the Neumann KH310 and try them for 14 days (the return window for Thomann Europe). But if they lacked bass, well.. I can't afford a sub for them at the moment, especially because the Neumann ones start at 1400 IIRC.

In my list I didn't mention the Quested S8R because there isn't a single shop that is selling them in Europe, I'm assuming they went out of production? The price was interesting at around €1500 each.

That's really surprising, my KH310s have tons of bottom end.

 

[sweetchaos]

deadmau5 - 4ware

It's not like the track has 20hz content.
That track goes down to 30hz only...KH 310A should be able to reproduce without much trouble.

 

[fmessier6]

For under 2000 eur/each, only 2 studio monitors (that we've seen measurements for), beat the Neumann KH 310A in terms of bass.

Thanks. Reading the spec sheets, how do I interpret these two values?

For the HS8, the description says: 8" Woofer (75 W)
For the KH310: 8 1/4" Woofer, peak power: 210 W (Woofer) - Continuous power: 150 W (Woofer).

So on paper the KH310 should deliver a stronger bass output?

 

[fmessier6]

That's really surprising, my KH310s have tons of bottom end.

Thank you. In my case, it could have been the speaker placement maybe? Or the fact that I was hearing a single monitor only.
I don't know, as many of you have said, the best thing for me would be to try them in my own room, sit down and listen for a few days.

 

[fmessier6]

Not Europe anymore but https://studiocare.com/products/quested-s8r-mkiii

Thank you, I messaged them about import fees / custom duties, which could levitate the price significantly.

EDIT: I'm looking at the spec sheet of the s8r, and it says frequency response: 53Hz - 20kHz.
On paper this is worse than the HS8, correct? Which is 38 Hz - 30,000 Hz.

 

[sweetchaos]

I basically ignore subwoofers below 10" in woofer size, because their output (in frequency extension and volume) is severely limited.
See my 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet to understand how much better subs that are 10" (or higher) are vs 8" subs.

The best thing is to correct the room's response on your speakers below the room transition frequency (also called Schroeder's frequency).
See this calculator to calculate it for your room size.
You can use the MMM (moving mic method) to measure your room's response and correct with REW.
Watch these:

 

[dominikz]

Thank you. In my case, it could have been the speaker placement maybe? Or the fact that I was hearing a single monitor only.
I don't know, as many of you have said, the best thing for me would be to try them in my own room, sit down and listen for a few days.

How far was the loudspeaker from walls/floor/ceiling when you auditioned?

If SBIR-related nulls from a few surfaces overlap somewhere between 70-100 Hz (1,2m-0,8m from front of speaker to the surface) that can make any loudspeaker sound very bass-light IME.

 

[fmessier6]

How far was the loudspeaker from walls/floor/ceiling when you auditioned?

The KH310 was in the very center of a large auditorium, for measurements I'd say at least 10 meters (32 feet) x 8 meters.

 

[dfuller]

Thanks. Reading the spec sheets, how do I interpret these two values?

For the HS8, the description says: 8" Woofer (75 W)
For the KH310: 8 1/4" Woofer, peak power: 210 W (Woofer) - Continuous power: 150 W (Woofer).

So on paper the KH310 should deliver a stronger bass output?

No, not necessarily. The KH310 is a sealed box alignment so it relies solely on driver excursion for its low frequency extension, which requires more power. The HS8 is a ported alignment which doesn't rely nearly so much on driver excursion (in fact at port tuning it will require basically no driver movement to get lots of level), so it needs less power.

However yes, the KH310 has significantly more power on tap.

Instead, I would recommend paying attention to the -3dB and -6dB points.

 

[LTig]

The KH310 was in the very center of a large auditorium, for measurements I'd say at least 10 meters (32 feet) x 8 meters.

No room gain then. Do you intend to place them similarly in your home? If not try to listen to them placed closer to the wall (1 - 2m, measured from the front). I own the O300D (predecessor of KH310) and it's bass is already good but according to Markus Wolff (developer of both) the KH310 is much better in this regard.

However for brutal loud deep bass there is no way around at least one sub.

 

[Longshan]

Thanks. I'm afraid no dealer here will allow me to try them at home, but the large number of positive reviews I've read make me feel confident I'm purchasing a solid product.

My room is still untreated, but I'm going to take some steps later this year. Not too much I can do though, an unfinished room with concrete walls with a high ceiling. Drilling the walls results in them shattering to pieces.

This is an old picture but it should give the idea.

View attachment 173676



Thanks. The price is very attractive too. I wish I could try them in store.



Thank you. You mentioned the need of EQ them, what do you mean exactly? EQ as some sort of correction?

You can definitely drill into your walls without shattering them. But there are many other ways of installing acoustic treatment that don't involve drilling. The properties of your room are at least as important as your speakers.

I'd have suggested the new IN-8s.