Help choosing column speakers

[kemmler3D]

Hi, Focal Vestia n4 aren't bright nor bass heavy according to measurements from Audiocholics (they have measured Vestia n3). That said they do around 33hz in my room. You might be experiencing an almost full range speaker for the first time hence the bass heavy impression.

Focal Vestia No.3 Floorstanding Speaker Review

Focal’s Vestia No.3 is a 3-way tower speaker that packs a lot of punch without costing a fortune despite being manufactured in France. Read our review to see if they live up to Focal’s high fidelity standards.

www.audioholics.com

Try blocking the rear bass reflex port with some socks or whatever to see if it's better. Then try blocking the front port. The just the front then both see if it helps.

Good points on a possible rude awakening on low bass. And you're right they are neither bright nor bass heavy on axis. But the dispersion is quite wide, especially around 10khz. So in a reflective / normal room vs. the dealers heavily damped room, it probably is noticeably bright.

 

[Des Esseintes]

The Vestia No.4 are significantly larger than the No.3 though. Wouldn't that naturally lead to heavier bass?

 

[kemmler3D]

Wouldn't that naturally lead to heavier bass?

"heavier" is maybe a matter of opinion. What you get with bigger size, in a good quality speaker like this, is bass that can go lower, and bass that can go louder when you want it to. But, it doesn't necessarily sound loud or boomy.

What often happens is, someone will upgrade their speakers, the new speakers can play lower, and this excites room modes that the old speaker could not excite. So in other words, the better speaker can make the natural boominess of the room come out... so now you are noticing boominess, which degrades the overall impression.

So without correction, more bass from a better speaker can reveal problems you didn't notice before. It's not that the speaker made a mess, it's that you turned on the lights and discovered a mess in the room.

 

[Rzezniq]

You can always correct the bass down either with plugging the bass reflex ports or the EQ.

You can't make a small speaker deliver low bass with the EQ as it's going to bottom out or require huge amount of power to play at normal levels.

I would always prefer to correct the bass bown out of the two.

I listened to a lot of well recorded Jazz on my Vestias n4 and they were not bright or boomy at any point. But that's my room not yours.

 

[Des Esseintes]

So essentially you're saying it's better to have bigger speakers that can do bass/treble well and work around that with room correction, EQ, acoustic panels, bass traps and whatnot than the other way around (more limited speakers than won't make the reflectiveness of the room come out so much)?

It is difficult for me to run more tests because I have been suffering from persistent audio fatigue these past few days (whether the speakers are the cause or not is hard to tell, probably they just triggered an underlying condition), it will take a few days of rest before I can go back to listening to music again. So I have to decide whether I am keeping the speakers or not without the ability to run those tests.

Would it help you help me if I uploaded a picture of my living room and/or a layout? Aside from adding more carpets and curtains, I am a bit wary of getting into acoustic panels because I would be clueless as to where to place them (plus having just redecorated the room, that could mean undoing a lot of what I have just done). Bass traps (if required) go in the corners behind the speakers I suppose?

I am not sure whether separating the living room from the entrance/staircase would help, and if so, would thick curtains do the job or does it have to be doors?

I have noticed the acoustics in the three rooms on that floor are noticeably different (even when keeping all the doors open) even though the walls and flooring are the same in each room, with windows in all three rooms. I am really clueless as to how these things work.

 

[Mart68]

Would it help you help me if I uploaded a picture of my living room and/or a layout?

Yes, let the dog see the rabbit.

Amongst other loudspeakers, I have some Focal towers here, they sound balanced but the room is quite heavily damped. Mostly with normal furnishings, only a small amount of dedicated treatment. It can usually be done, few rooms are impossible.

 

[Rzezniq]

Digital room EQ will get you there. You are listening from a Pc so use digital sound processing. It should be easy.

Small speakers can't do bass well. So I always prefer deep bass even if it causes some room issues. Try plugging bass reflex ports and moving speakers away from the wall and moving them off axis for treble reduction.

 

[kolestonin]

It is difficult for me to run more tests because I have been suffering from persistent audio fatigue these past few days (whether the speakers are the cause or not is hard to tell, probably they just triggered an underlying condition), it will take a few days of rest before I can go back to listening to music again. So I have to decide whether I am keeping the speakers or not without the ability to run those tests.

It's possible that your current condition is playing a role in how you're perceiving the sound of these speakers. Especially considering your history with ear sensitivity and tinnitus.

Even if the fatigue is the main culprit, I still wonder how much better things can realistically get. I understand that sometimes we need time to warm up to a speaker. What initially feels underwhelming might eventually become enjoyable. But if your very first impression was one of discomfort or even annoyance, the most you might hope for is that it becomes tolerable. And we don’t buy speakers just to tolerate them. We buy them to enjoy music.

I get that packing and returning the speakers can be a hassle. But since you’re currently unable to properly evaluate them, and your return window is closing, I think it's reasonable to return them for now.

Once you're feeling better, you might consider looking into speakers that are known for being non-fatiguing. I’d recommend starting your research with models that are neutral and have controlled (often narrow) dispersion, as they’re less likely to excite problematic room modes. I would suggest researching active studio monitors which are designed for long, accurate listening sessions, and often better suited to sensitive ears than many hi-fi-oriented designs.

 

[Des Esseintes]

So here is the layout of the room, with the speakers as they are currently positioned. Measurements are in cm, so the wall behind the speakers is 420cm/165 inches with a French window right in the middle (between the speakers behind them). The room's length is 780cm/307inches. The living room is divided into two parts. You enter from the entrance through the opening on the left. Currently there are no doors, so the living room is not separated from the entrance and then the staircase going to the top floor. It has wooden flooring and brick walls that are painted except for the wallpaper that you see in the pictures.

Picture quality is crap and I'm still in the process of painting and whatnot but it should give a reasonable sense of room layout and what can be done.

This is taken from the "garden" end of the room. The white thingee behind the left hand speaker is the A/C and cannot be moved, and on the right there's a stove:

You can see the entrance on the left. Maybe adding curtains or a door there could help? And curtains in front of the window?

Taken from the other end of the room, you can see the staircase on the right:

Taken from the listener's position:

Obvious things I could do immediately besides EQ/room correction software/plugging bass reflex ports, not sure if any of that would help dampen the room:

1. Adding curtains in front of both windows
2. Adding a carpet in the "garden" part of the living room under the table.
3. Adding curtains or a door to separate the living room from the entrance/staircase.
3. Repositioning the speakers in front of the wallpaper with the two sofas opposite to them (not sure how that is going to affect how the sound is then distrib).
4. Adding bass traps in the corners behind the speakers, even though with the way they are currently positioned, it might be difficult to do so in the left-hand corner due to the A/C
5. Adding acoustic panels on the walls/ceiling, but where?

 

[Purité Audio]

You could try sitting a bit closer, experiment with toe-in, more soft furnishings and as always REW and a microphone .
Keith

 

[Mart68]

Using a room mode calculator (which is only a rough guide) it looks like you will have a room mode in the low 40 Hz region, that's probably the cause of the bass boom since I'd guess the port is tuned around that frequency, not unusual for that type of speaker. More than likely you can fix that with a notch filter in EQ. No need for bass traps which aren't that effective, mostly.

Get rid of the extreme toe-in, that will only exacerbate the brightness - I always found Focal are better balanced when pointing dead straight on.

There's a lot you can do by adding normal furnishings there. Bear in mind one little thing will do nothing but lots of little things will add up.

Some things you could do:

Replace the armchairs with a big, fabric covered padded sofa.
Add more rugs throughout the room, the thicker the better.
Heavy curtains on all windows - not so sure about the gap to the entrance way since a gap does not reflect.
More bookshelves full of books
Large plants in large pots

For dedicated treatment I'd maybe look at adding some to the ceiling, although that's awkward and potentially expensive.

 

[raindance]

How far apart are the speakers and how far from the front wall? You can try them a little closer together to get them more out of the corners and bring them a little closer to the listening position. Face them straight ahead.

 

[Des Esseintes]

How far apart are the speakers and how far from the front wall? You can try them a little closer together to get them more out of the corners and bring them a little closer to the listening position. Face them straight ahead.

235cm (92.5 inches) between them, 60cm (23.6) from the back wall, 65 cm (25.6) from the side walls, 310cm (122) between the listening position and each speaker, 680cm (268) from the speakers to the wall at the other end of the room.

 

[raindance]

Try the speakers 7' apart pointed straight forward, same distance from front wall and move your listening position to 8 or even 9' from each speaker.

 

[Wolf11Man]

Too bad you already ordered an amp. The Denon x-3800 has the "big" Audessey version ond would correct your problem with 10 minutes measureing session. It is not only equalizing, but does a lot more for corrections Most "Audiophiles" don't like Audessey, they never tried it or think it is too cheap, as you get it with a decend AVR for free, while Dirac (or Antimode in some markets) is so much more costly, doubeling the price of the Denon for example. If Audessey is a no in Hiend, why is Dirac accepted? Hiend is not always pure logic...

The features of the Technics have noting to do with your problem. Just some fancy naming from the marketing division, like "New Class-A" (if you remember).

The 80€ number was just an example, I thought of speaker and the CD to amp wires. If you got simple, pure copper 2.5mm wires and some decend signal cables, anything will be OK. No matter of +- 50€.
IMO most people spend too much for fancy wires, I do them my self from components bought at pro audio sources like Thomann. Mostly I use wire sold in meters from Sommer Cable and low cost studio quality connectors like Rean or Amphenol which will last a life time. You can not gain anything there.

Room treatment is a very hot thematic. From serious things like carpets, curtains and absorbing /diffusing measures there is only a short distance to snake oil like "bass traps". Like with voodoo cables, there is so much money to make, there are numbers of promoters and victims that don't want to accept they got scammed. So some will vigourosly defend them. Bass traps are always no return purchases. If they don't work, the seller will tell you to buy more...

Putting your satisfying, smaller speakers in the same room as the FOCAL is a very good idea. Focus on the higher region, your small speakers may simply not reach that low or even profit from the resonance the Focal is suffering from.
Something like putting some socks, foam plugs or what ever into the rear and front vent is nice. You don't need to hammer something inside, just close them. Many speakers come with foam plugs from the factory, so nothing bad about that. Closing one vent will lower the f3 frequency of the tuning (if both woofers use one space). All experiments like front or rear, one or both are OK if they help.

Do not point the speakers directly at the listening position, that may be too much. Sometimes just parallel to the wall is better.

Expensive speakers are mainly bought by older, more wealthy people. So a little hot tuned high range may help with some hearing loss. Too much bass is mostly an argument for the younger generation, try some Techno, that will be fine

 

[kemmler3D]

From serious things like carpets, curtains and absorbing /diffusing measures there is only a short distance to snake oil like "bass traps"

I just want to chime in and say bass traps as a category aren't snake oil, but most of them don't do anything to low frequencies the way you want them to. Some, perhaps many don't have any business calling themselves bass traps, but products that absorb bass effectively below 100hz do exist.

For most people the amount of bass trapping you need to fix a room is completely unreasonable, you need a lot. There is no free lunch in acoustics.

This is in contrast to real snake oil categories like super high end cables and DACs that never do what they claim to do, and often in fact cannot do what they claim to do.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Too bad you already ordered an amp. The Denon x-3800 has the "big" Audessey version ond would correct your problem with 10 minutes measureing session. It is not only equalizing, but does a lot more for corrections Most "Audiophiles" don't like Audessey, they never tried it or think it is too cheap, as you get it with a decend AVR for free, while Dirac (or Antimode in some markets) is so much more costly, doubeling the price of the Denon for example. If Audessey is a no in Hiend, why is Dirac accepted? Hiend is not always pure logic...

I went for the Technics as it wasn't all that much more expensive than Topping+DAC+phono preamp and I thought room correction could be done easily from a PC. I might be able to cancel the amp (not sure) since it hasn't shipped yet if you think it's worth it?

 

[Yameyo]

Having switched to an AVR myself for the convenience of an all-in-one box with built in (mostly automated) DRC, I wouldn't go back.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Having switched to an AVR myself for the convenience of an all-in-one box with built in (mostly automated) DRC, I wouldn't go back.

I see. I don't need all the extra stuff that comes with an AVR though. Just USB and phono inputs.

 

[Wolf11Man]

If you compare a Dirac version that doesn't have any extra stuff at all, to the Denon, you will be surprised how much value the X-3800 is. Or how ridiculously expensive Dirac is. Your needs will change and having all the options of such a modern AVR is quite nice. When I bought my last AVR, I thought I didn't need all the stuff. Today I use quite some nice gadgets which I didn't even knew about.
If you can, try the AVR with Audessey. You will not regret it, i'm sure.