Help choosing column speakers

[Des Esseintes]

I think I'll go with the Focal Vestia 4 because I have been able to try them so I know what I am getting and the fact that it is hard for me to tell whether they're better or worse than speakers twice the price (Sonus Faber Sonetto V) means that they're either great for the price or that my ears are not very discerning, and in either case that doesn't justify spending more. I started a new thread about amps here

 

[Rzezniq]

These aren't the speakers that require a lot of power. I have no issues driving them off a cheap Sony AVR that's 8 years old or so. Buy an external DAC (hundreds reviewed on this forum to choose from) and a topping la90 and live a happy life. You can correct for your room on a PC.

Polk r500 is a good shout but they don't do bass very well as the woofers are tiny. They need a subwoofer. Vestia n4 not so much with 2x8" woofer per speaker and over 100l of speaker cabinet capacity.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Is providing enough power to drive the speakers the only criterion when choosing an amp? The topping la90 provides 50W at 8 Ω (the Vestias' impedence if I am not mistaken), which is at the lower end of what Focal recommends (40–350 W @ 8 Ω). Would that be enough?

I read a ton about coloration and tonal synergy, stability, damping factor, current headroom and whatnot, but don't know what to make of it.

Just for fun I submitted my list to ChatGPT, who recommended the Musical Fidelity M5si among those. That's a 9-year old amp from what I can see.

 

[Rzezniq]

Focals are more of a 6ohm speaker and not demanding at all. With 50W you will be able to drive them to 96db at 3m distance from a single speaker. That's close to 99db with 2 speakers.
That's LOUD.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Ok so I received my Focal Vestia 4 but no amp yet. However I did test them with my current amp, which is a Nuforce DDA-100 bought in 2013 (probably insufficient for the task, I know but that's all I had at my disposal and I was too impatient to wait for my amp to be delivered).

Now I'm worried. They sounded completely different from they way they did at the audio store (different units, same model). It may be that the pairing with the Nuforce was bad, that the acoustics in my room are not ideal, I don't know, but the bass were boomy and muddy and the highs very shrill, to the point that even at moderate volume, sitting 2.5 meters from them, I started feeling audio fatigue and then physical discomfort after just a few minutes. I am still experiencing buzzing and ringing in my ears after listening to them for less than an hour.

To be perfectly honest, I have occasional tinnitus and stuffiness due to my Eustachian tubes being too narrow, but I have never had this experience with speakers before. How is this even possible?

 

[kyuu]

Hard to say, given we have no measurements of the Focal Vestia 4 that I'm aware of. That's the issue with auditioning a speaker in a dealer's space, there's no way to know how the speaker will actually sound in your room based on that. It will be pretty difficult to diagnose what the issue is unless you take some measurements so we can see what's going on. Failing that, you can try blindly repositioning the speakers as your setup allows to see if that helps or not. Or just return the speakers and try something else.

Unless your amp is seriously sub-par, defective, or is doubling as an effects box (adding audible distortion, etc.), neither it nor any other electronics are the problem.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Hard to say, given we have no measurements of the Focal Vestia 4 that I'm aware of. That's the issue with auditioning a speaker in a dealer's space, there's no way to know how the speaker will actually sound in your room based on that. It will be pretty difficult to diagnose what the issue is unless you take some measurements so we can see what's going on. Failing that, you can try blindly repositioning the speakers as your setup allows to see if that helps or not. Or just return the speakers and try something else.

Unless your amp is seriously sub-par, defective, or is doubling as an effects box (adding audible distortion, etc.), neither it nor any other electronics are the problem.

Yes, it could be any number of things, including being particularly tired on that day. But you've eliminated the one important factor to me, which is the amp since I have a 14-day window to decide whether I want to return them or not and my new amp might not show up within that time frame. I will run more tests moving them around, but I suspect they might be too harsh and "in your face" for my listening environment/personal circumstances.

I could also play around with trebble/bass levels with the source, but even if that works, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have speakers that require you to constantly adjust the sound settings of the source.

Also I'm playing music from my computer and from what I read, it could potentially send high-frequency static into the system. Is that true or an urban legend? And would that be enough to cause discomfort (which was not the case with my B&W bookshelf speakers with the same amp).

I am considering investing in a dedicated network hard drive or whatever you call those to put all my music and "pilot" that from my computer without playing directly from my computer if that makes any difference.

 

[Wolf11Man]

Try to contact Focal for a way to verify your speakers are real FOCAL. The low price you paid is not matched anywhere I searched.

After years of experiencing friends with new gear that sounded bad at home, I have a simple check to find out about problems:
I bring a simple amp (today a TDA3255 powered class D for far less than 200€) and a CD player (noting fancy, a Marantz CD67 OSE) plus some reference CD's. I bring my own set of cables for speaker and source, too. Also, noting fancy, just simple quality stuff.
In many cases the new speakers instandly improved.
This was mostly with guys using computer based or MP3 sources. There are so many things you can mess up with data format and resolution you can simply not cover all of them. People are extremely creative in not understanding how compressed audio works. A nice one is to use low resolution material and "convert" it to high res. Like "but it is full CD quality now"... Many have collected so much stupid audio ideas over the years, you simply wonder how they screwed up that big time. If the chain has loudness and tone controls, they are usually used to extremes. "Yes, but I like it that way". You can't beat that argument, even when the woofers hit the pole plate on a regualar base.

Also amps and receivers age sometimes. People don't realize it with their old gear because it is a slow process. Than they replace speaker because they are told to do so. May be because audio dealer usually make much more profit on speakers than other gear.
Even as there is a theory that all amps sound the same, I heard a lot that sounded just gruesome on the first sounds you heard. Consumer audio of the past has a lot of these examples.
If you have a very diffilcult listening room, an entry class AVR, like the DENON avr x3800h will be a much better solution than any high end stereo amp. Problem is people believe in the myth that AVR's sound worse than stereo amps. Something that is burned in peoples minds like a religion. The top end Audessey will improve the majortity of installations like a magic wand. If that is not enough, an upgrade to Dirac may help, even as the result may have a very bad price/ performance ratio compared to Audessey.

Last is your ears that may be adjusted to some odd response you have been used to. It may need a few hours (without listening to the "old" standard in between) until you realize how nice a linear system sounds.

PS the FOCALS should be very good speakers, even for the regular price.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure they're real Focal speakers. That's the price they're sold at at most major retailers in France. Focal is currently phasing out the Vestia line. Could it be because they sounded too "harsh" to a lot of people?

I listen to uncompressed audio (Flac) that are direct rips from my own vinyl/CD collection. But yes, the sound comes from my computer and maybe that introduces some harshness that maybe is magnified by the switch from the small B&W speakers to the very large Focal columns?

I will run all the other tests, put curtains on my windows, carpets on the floor, move the speakers around, feed them lots of different types of (uncompressed) music, try different cables (I tried them with some super duper "audiophile" cables that I got for free but that are quite old, I also have 10 meters of cheapo Audioquest cables that I can try), try CDs on my BD/UHD player as the source.

 

[Wolf11Man]

The main problem in such an audio chain is to realize what has a real influence on sound and what is just public knowledge, introduced by marketing.
Maybe I can give you and idea what really matters? First, any difference you instandly hear in a comparison is usualy a matter of different levels. Only when you adjust an A/B test in level, you will get serious results.

Cables: You can't win anything in sound with cables, you can only loose. Even if you spend 250000€ (a quarter million) for cables, you will not improve a chains sound, compared to good quality wires for maybe 80€ or even less. This will be disputed by any audio salesman, because he makes some hundred or even thousand % profit on wires.

CD player. If we remove defective and realy bad 30€ gear, any CD or DVD/BlueRay player from Denon, Marantz, Sony and the like will have a good enough analog audio output not to spoil the reproduction. The differences may be audible, but not in a better/ worse, but more taste region. How the unit feels and looks plus the price tag will change more in your perception than the objective output. If you use the digital out things get even more boring: All the same or defective.
Same thing for DAC's. It is hard to find one that really sounds bad.

Amps: Today we have reached a high grade of good, neutral sounding amps doing 99.999% nothing wrong. . If we remove the worst examples, differences get very small. There may be an amp getting allong with problematic speakers better than another, but the average modern quality amp will not be a limiting part of your system.

If you ask me for a stereo amp, I may give you a price list, but no "sound" list. You will have a hard time to beat a well choosen 120€ D-amp, whatever budget you have. If you need more then 2x250 W/4 Ohm, you may be able to spend some more money. The problem is your idea of a capable amp: You will think such a 100-200€ D-thing is too small and maybe dislike the power supply it may have attached. Do not expect an A, A/B or D amp to sound any different! One of the great lies in audio.

I already mentioned an AVR. Get the Denon and you are save. Best you can do. Soundwise if you want a neutral, good amp, for different sources of any kind and for complicated rooms.
These AVR's are solid amps if used for stereo only, because the juice from the power supply serves only two channels. The best option for you IMO. The Denon X-3800 for 800-900€ is hard to beat. There are no new standards on the horizoon, so you may use it for the next decade.
If you have never heard what a good room correction can do to a good speaker, you will not belive the difference.
Also, you get an advantage to bi-amp your speaker, any good AVR got this option. So you use 4 amps for your speaker. It may give no difference in the worst case, but could help the high and low part quite audible.

The only thing left with huge sound differences is the speaker. I would be really surprised if your FOCAL speaker does anything wrong. May just sound very different to what you are used to.
The model you got should be well known in France, maybe look up some independent sources and try to read the fine print.

PS sorry, FOCAL doesn't like bi-amping. I thought this option to be a standard for 3000€. Not with your speaker.
By the way, what bothers me, why did you like the speaker in the dealers room. Usually there are not so huge sound differences.

 

[Mart68]

Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure they're real Focal speakers. That's the price they're sold at at most major retailers in France. Focal is currently phasing out the Vestia line. Could it be because they sounded too "harsh" to a lot of people?

I listen to uncompressed audio (Flac) that are direct rips from my own vinyl/CD collection. But yes, the sound comes from my computer and maybe that introduces some harshness that maybe is magnified by the switch from the small B&W speakers to the very large Focal columns?

I will run all the other tests, put curtains on my windows, carpets on the floor, move the speakers around, feed them lots of different types of (uncompressed) music, try different cables (I tried them with some super duper "audiophile" cables that I got for free but that are quite old, I also have 10 meters of cheapo Audioquest cables that I can try), try CDs on my BD/UHD player as the source.

If your room is all hard surfaces currently that might well be the problem, unless the dealer's room you auditioned them in was similar? I'd guess not though. You liked the speakers there, they are the same speaker, clearly they are not the issue.

Damping down high frequency reflections in the room at least to some extent is always necessary with high fidelity speakers and a digital source since, unlike analogue sources, there's no attenuation of high frequencies other than that contributed by the room acoustic (and distance from the speaker, but you are listening quite close at 3 metres).

Don't waste your time with cables, but do try CD player just to eliminate the computer source as a problem - highly unlikely it is the issue but it's possible.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Cables: You can't win anything in sound with cables, you can only loose. Even if you spend 250000€ (a quarter million) for cables, you will not improve a chains sound, compared to good quality wires for maybe 80€ or even less. This will be disputed by any audio salesman, because he makes some hundred or even thousand % profit on wires.

Thanks for the explanation. The cables I got are actually from Supra (not Audioquest as I previously mentioned) and I paid €37 for 10 meters, so well below the €80 you mentioned. I didn't go for more expensive cables because I have read everywhere that as long as the gauge is sufficient relative to the length of the cable, there is no difference. Does it matter whether I paid €37 or €80?

If your room is all hard surfaces currently that might well be the problem, unless the dealer's room you auditioned them in was similar? I'd guess not though. You liked the speakers there, they are the same speaker, clearly they are not the issue.

Damping down high frequency reflections in the room at least to some extent is always necessary with high fidelity speakers and a digital source since, unlike analogue sources, there's no attenuation of high frequencies other than that contributed by the room acoustic (and distance from the speaker, but you are listening quite close at 3 metres).

Don't waste your time with cables, but do try CD player just to eliminate the computer source as a problem - highly unlikely it is the issue but it's possible.

I am listening to the speakers right now and what strikes me is just how bass-heavy they are. The bass can be really overpowering even at low volume and even when moving them quite far from the walls behind and on either side. Also, they're very, very "bright".

It was all carpet with acoustic panels on the ceilings and no windows at the audio store. My living room is all wooden flooring and brick walls with a carpet and no metallic furniture (all wood), but it does have a couple of French windows and there's no door between the room and the entrance that then leads to the stairs and the top floor. So in that sense if I clap my hands, I can sense that the acoustics are more echoey than if I go in the 100% enclosed, 100% carpeted room that I use to watch movies. I am not sure what I can do about it... Would thick curtains between the living room and the entrance improve things somewhat?

Ultimately it could be that no matter what I do, I need speakers that are less bright and less bass-heavy. Or it could be that due to my hearing conditions, there might be certain frequencies that I am not used to hearing this loud and they trigger listening fatigue much earlier than for other people and that I was in a better physical condition when I tried the speakers at the hi-fi store. I think I'll keep them another week and if nothing improves I'll return them.

And I hear no difference between playing the same music in CD format from my Sony BD/UHD player and from my computer in FLAC format.

 

[Mart68]

So in that sense if I clap my hands, I can sense that the acoustics are more echoey than if I go in the 100% enclosed, 100% carpeted room that I use to watch movies.

Try the Focals in there? If they still sound bright and harsh in a damped room then I'd say they aren't going to work for you.

 

[kemmler3D]

99% chance all of your problems with the sound are due to your room being different than the dealers room. Don't freak out, there is very likely nothing wrong with your gear. Room problems are a pain but they are solvable.

The first step is to play with placement in the room, to the extent that is possible.

The suggestion to use an AVR with room correction features is a good one, it will do a lot of improvement more or less automatically.

But, Since you are using a PC as a source you can also correct the sound there using free tools such as REW and EQAPO. There are many tutorials on using those here on ASR.

That will mostly take care of the boomy bass. Once that is fixed, you will probably also feel like the mids are improved but the treble will still be too high.

You can address this somewhat with EQ but it's much better to add furniture, rugs, curtains, or acoustic panels.

You can use smartphone apps to measure the response in your room to get started, but buying a real measurement mic (common recommendation is UMIK-1) will help you move more confidently and more accurately.

If you want to know exactly how to fix your room, see if the dealer will let you take a REW measurement of their setup and these speakers. Comparing it to your own measurement will tell you a great deal about how to fix this, you can even upload the result here and usually someone will analyze them and tell you what's wrong.

Again, no need to panic as everything you're saying can be potentially explained by unfavorable acoustics in your room.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Try the Focals in there? If they still sound bright and harsh in a damped room then I'd say they aren't going to work for you.

It's upstairs and the Focals are a tad heavy. I can try the other speakers downstairs though...

99% chance all of your problems with the sound are due to your room being different than the dealers room. Don't freak out, there is very likely nothing wrong with your gear. Room problems are a pain but they are solvable.

The first step is to play with placement in the room, to the extent that is possible.

The suggestion to use an AVR with room correction features is a good one, it will do a lot of improvement more or less automatically.

But, Since you are using a PC as a source you can also correct the sound there using free tools such as REW and EQAPO. There are many tutorials on using those here on ASR.

That will mostly take care of the boomy bass. Once that is fixed, you will probably also feel like the mids are improved but the treble will still be too high.

You can address this somewhat with EQ but it's much better to add furniture, rugs, curtains, or acoustic panels.

You can use smartphone apps to measure the response in your room to get started, but buying a real measurement mic (common recommendation is UMIK-1) will help you move more confidently and more accurately.

If you want to know exactly how to fix your room, see if the dealer will let you take a REW measurement of their setup and these speakers. Comparing it to your own measurement will tell you a great deal about how to fix this, you can even upload the result here and usually someone will analyze them and tell you what's wrong.

Again, no need to panic as everything you're saying can be potentially explained by unfavorable acoustics in your room.

I'm not really panicking, just wondering if improving the acoustics in my room is not an uphill battle compared to just sending the Focals back and getting speakers with a slightly softer sound signature. Because I already have furniture and carpets so short of adding curtains (but do I really want to block all sunlight everytime I listen to music?) and acoustic panels, I might not be able to do a lot more.

 

[kemmler3D]

It's upstairs and the Focals are a tad heavy. I can try the other speakers downstairs though...


I'm not really panicking, just wondering if improving the acoustics in my room is not an uphill battle compared to just sending the Focals back and getting speakers with a slightly softer sound signature. Because I already have furniture and carpets so short of adding curtains (but do I really want to block all sunlight everytime I listen to music?) and acoustic panels, I might not be able to do a lot more.

From what I can tell the Vestia line has pretty wide dispersion in the treble / low DI (maybe something to do with the signature M tweeter?) especially around 10Khz so you can expect a pretty bright sound in a reflective room.

A simple and completely valid way to improve this is simply to remove some treble via EQ. I might try a -3dB, wide filter centered around 8Khz and see if that helps. Or a downward tilt starting around 3Khz all the way up to 20Khz, for a total of maybe 5-7dB and see how you like it.

There are other problems like excess decay time or resonance that EQ can't really solve, but if tonal balance is the problem, it is an ideal tool.

If that doesn't work and you decide to return them, you might want to look into speakers with narrow dispersion, which take the room out of the equation more, but force you to sit in a smaller "sweet spot". Always some trade-offs...

 

[Des Esseintes]

The amp I have ordered (Technics su-g700m2) has the LAPC (Load Adaptive Phase Calibration) function, not sure if that will help.

Reducing the bass with the EQ makes for a slightly more comfortable listening experience.

 

[MAB]

Thanks for the explanation. The cables I got are actually from Supra (not Audioquest as I previously mentioned) and I paid €37 for 10 meters, so well below the €80 you mentioned. I didn't go for more expensive cables because I have read everywhere that as long as the gauge is sufficient relative to the length of the cable, there is no difference. Does it matter whether I paid €37 or €80?

Please understand, the cables will not make one iota of difference. You can use cheap lamp cord from the local hardware store for example, it will work great. A very fine member has done a series of tests on woo woo audio, here is a link to his binding post study which includes the use of antique nails... No sound difference.

Different Binding Posts - is it audible?

The influence of BP on the sound of loudspeakers has often been controversially discussed. It even goes so far that individual voices describe the influence of binding posts as immense and recommend only very high-quality BPs - That made me curious. The full mini series: Capacitor...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Lot's of cable tests on ASR, cables are a non-issue in reproduction:

Nordost SuperFlatLine Speaker Cable Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Nordost SuperFlatLine speaker cable. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $360. As you see, the cable name is fully descriptive with parallel copper traces running from one end to the other. The edges of the cable are somewhat sharp and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Audioquest GO-4 Speaker Cable Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AudioQuest GO-4 speaker cable. It is on kind loan from a member and costs about US $599. The attached dongle is a 72 volt battery supply that feeds an unterminated wire the length of the cable. Different terminations can be ordered. Here are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Rest easy on the cables for sure.

 

[kemmler3D]

The amp I have ordered (Technics su-g700m2) has the LAPC (Load Adaptive Phase Calibration) function, not sure if that will help.

Reducing the bass with the EQ makes for a slightly more comfortable listening experience.

EQ can be surprisingly effective when it is used to correct the specific problems of your room. Almost all rooms have some issues with bass, but the specific frequencies vary.

Have a look at this thread, basically you can use your PC to not only improve the bass in a general way, but correct the specific frequencies that make it boomy and bad. This approach is constantly recommended on ASR with good reason, and speaking from personal experience, it makes a massive difference.

If boomy bass is a headache, and If a little EQ done by ear is a warm towel on your head, proper room correction with a microphone is 3 Advil, beverage of your choice, and a neck massage.

It isn't really enhancing or changing how the speakers operate, it is a way of compensating for the (hopefully) exact amount of distortion introduced by your room below a certain frequency at the listening position.

The LAPC feature of the amp will not help... it may be able to improve performance of the speaker/amp combo somehow, (no idea) but it doesn't know anything about your room.

 

[Rzezniq]

Hi, Focal Vestia n4 aren't bright nor bass heavy according to measurements from Audiocholics (they have measured Vestia n3). That said they do around 33hz in my room. You might be experiencing an almost full range speaker for the first time hence the bass heavy impression.

Focal Vestia No.3 Floorstanding Speaker Review

Focal’s Vestia No.3 is a 3-way tower speaker that packs a lot of punch without costing a fortune despite being manufactured in France. Read our review to see if they live up to Focal’s high fidelity standards.

www.audioholics.com

Try blocking the rear bass reflex port with some socks or whatever to see if it's better. Then try blocking the front port. The just the front then both see if it helps.